Topic: The Bitcoin Foundation is TOXIC and must dissolve, plus a call to action - page 2. (Read 24462 times)

Ron Paul joined the mafia in hope he could change the mafia into something good. He couldn't have succeeded. Of course one does not change / destroy mafia by joining it (except for success stories in movies).

I think Gavin and other TBF members are smarter than Ron Paul and have greater chances of succeeding. But still I estimate their chances at 0.00000000%, which is not worth the effort.

I do not think they make as much as the Bitcoin system and Bitcoin community wants. Look at Bitcoin-Qt: its development is slow, it is hardly usable for non-programmers, wiki is outdated, there is no documentation for Bitcoin-Qt, etc.


There are no issues at TBF. TBF's management are just a few guys who use other guys' donated money for things the latter ones do not like. No issues, just good business. TBF business is just fine.

They are blowing thru their money, and more and more people want their money back. Which I think most people never got the money back which shows that the foundation is in it for profit.

Gavin, you do realize that you're in a unique position here, where your decisions now within the Foundation will greatly affect Bitcoin's future.

While I agree with you about Bitcoin not being the sole catalyst for financial freedom, you must understand that by lobbying and engaging DC politicians, you are working within the very same corrupt system that Satoshi was fed up with.

Now look at someone like Ron Paul, who has worked within this corrupt system for his entire career. Numerous versions of his bill to audit the Federal Reserve (like, a full-on audit) were struck down time and again by banking interests. His attempts at the Presidency were easily kneecapped by a corrupt GOP and corporate-owned media. Do you really think something so disruptive like Bitcoin, that not only competes with the Federal Reserve, but threatens entire banking industries around the world, with all their money and power, are going to lay back and accept Bitcoin just because some politically-naive programmers hired a few good lawyers?

It's like handing your enemy a time bomb, saying, "Here's what will eventually destroy you, however I'm going to show you all of its secrets so you don't attack me first."

I am, as are others, fearful that you are jumping into a snake pit here, and one misstep could doom Bitcoin to the shadows of the internet. And I'm sure the moneyed interests in Washington would be just fine with that.

Gweedo,

Here's the deal:
a) given your description is ''Java, PHP, HTML/CSS Programmer for Hire!''
b) assuming people will not resume their subscriptions at TBF = no salary for Gavin and his team, and no to little money for development and testing
then just talk to the devs, convince them to leave their low-salary / no-salary jobs at TBF   and make business by creating the Bitcoin Project Management website. How does it sound to you?

Some devs are making money off of Bitcoin. Others can if they choose to. Do you believe if the lead dev decided to open his own pool no one would join? I want TBF to solve their own issues. For some reason Mr. Andresen chooses to remain above the fray and not join in all the money that's being made. He never mined or owned many Bitcoins, doesn't run a pool and isn't making a sidebar for profit wallet or app. That's fine. Then TBF can pay him to work for Bitcoin business needs. However, it's not necessary to feel sorry for him. He's been here long enough and is bright enough to have made a few dollars along the way if he chose too.

You mean pay more developers and have less to pay Gavin, your insane LOL The only reason for the foundation is so Gavin gets paid.

I don't know about other TBF members but I won't be renewing my membership next year if the quote in this topic is true.  If anything I can see the TBF forming a hard fork and trying to buy Gavin with them for legitimately.

That's not what I meant. If you read through my posts in this thread you could arrive at the conclusion that I am rather afraid of less money being potentially left for Gavin due to the expenditures that may need to be spent on the lobbyist.

Gavin,

You certainly are aware of users grumbling of Bitcoin not being easy to use for non power users. You must be aware that devs are not happy for providing their work free of charge.

Are there any plans at TBF that you are aware of to start paying the devs. What plans if any are there to speed up the development process? If yes, how will this be financed?

Thanks

I'm walking along the beach in CC, TX thanks to Bitcoin and thinking something similar, but that's just a segue. There may come a day when in fact everyone BEGS for regulation compliance for safety's sake. The real strength of Bitcoin is that its rarity regulates government, not the other way around.

Couple years ago it was "Don't talk to the CIA! They're Evil, and will Destroy Bitcoin!"

Now it is "Don't get involved in DC lobbying! That's Evil, and will Destroy Bitcoin!"

In a few more years, I bet it'll be "Don't go to the United Nations! They're Evil, and will Destroy Bitcoin!"

I'll quote myself from a related thread on google+

I encourage both hijacking and further schisms. Onward to decentralized victory!

When I say "democratic" I misspeak. I should have said something like "operated by and for human beings, without specific weight or voice given to developers, merchants, traders, speculators, miners, etc."

just a website, a project management website. no foundations, no organizations (you save on lawyers, banks and accountants)


If you can set up such a website and attract sellers (developers) and buyers (people and businesses) by the quality of your service you can even nominate yourself to be President of Mickey Mouse. Nobody will care.

can we call this the free market foundation, I nominate me as Prez

Okay Guys,

Let's conclude this part of the thread:

1. There is an organization called TBF. Several businesses and individual people donated to this organization. This organization probably has its by-laws which must have been known to the businesses and people prior to donating.

2. My guts are telling me the by-laws were not violated by appointing / electing / whatever Peter Vessenes to be chairman of this organization.

3. Peter Vessenes has the power to do with the donated money as he pleases. He can hire a lobbyist, he can pay for the hookers if he believes that his action ''standardizes, protects and promotes the use of Bitcoin cryptographic money for the benefit of users worldwide''.

4. We may dislike what he does with this money, but we have no power over what he does with it. And probably businesses and individual people who have donated have no power over what Peter Vessenes does with this money. They may find it unaesthetic / unwanted and contradictory to TBF's motto, but by having donated they agreed (probably in line with the organizations' by-laws) to give the chairman the power to spend this money.

5. The OP called for action:
a) with regard to TBF There is nothing we can do  and neither should we be doing anything regarding TBF. If donors continue to pay TBF under Peter Vessenes, TBF will survive. If donors stop financing Peter Vessenes, TBF will die.

b) with regard to Bitcoin While I like his first statement, I truly dislike his second statement. No matter what context I put ''democratically'' in, it just sounds bad. I do not know TBF's by-laws, but surely there are some democratic mechanism built-in like voting. And now see what happened! There is no guarantee that a new ''democratic'' organization will not end up like TBF. Actually one can be pretty sure a new organization will end just like TBF.

How about replacing the word ''democracy'' with the word ''free market'' to arrive at a new vision?


The problems after TBF dies or gets involved in politics or both

1. There will be less and less money available for development and testing of the system = less newcomers to the Bitcoin system due to its current incarnation aimed for power users = fall in BTC value

2. Devs will need to build in (for free?) the system and Bitcon client the mechanisms enforced by the regulators whom Peter Vessenes wants to joyfully talk to = end of Bitcoin = new cryptocurrency will replace Bitcoin

3. Non-statist developers will stop working on the system = I do not even want to think what this might result in

4. ..... you surely can write better scenarios (mathematics will be replace by politics, etc.)


The solution

Let's work on a free-market solution. No more organizations, even democratic ones claiming to represent me or you or the best interest of the Bitcoin community. Just free market:

1. A dev should set up a project management website where people, developers and business can submit (I posted in this thread a picture of how such a website might look like):
a) bug reports
b) feature request
c) others (not only system development can be financed through this website, but also keeping wiki up-to-date)
2. Through this website we will be paying the devs for their services like maintaining the system, enhancements, adding features (bug fixing should be the priority and should be free of charge - just my opinion).
3. The bright dev who will set up the project management website should charge commission for his services of maintaining the website, e.g. 1% of all money received by the devs.


The benefits of the solution
a) no politics involved - there will be no-one the so called government can even send an e-mail to discuss Bitcoin or changes to Bitcoin
b) system is properly maintained and undergoes development
c) devs are happy
d) more people come to use the system that is better secured = increase in Bitcoin value


Risks
a) retail users have less purchasing power than business users, therefore business users will enforce the way the Bitcoin system is maintained and developed - this is an unlikely scenario: businesses have as much money as individual people let them have. Businesses derive money from people, e.g. MtGox holds less than 1% of my equity and MtGox can only spend 0.5% of that money (fees). A hundred users easily can financially ''outvote'' MtGox, BitPay and other businesses, BTW retail users and business users do not necessarily need to have opposing interests - they can finance the development jointly

b) people will flood the project management website with silly requests - unlikely to happen when people must back their requests with money

c) crowd financing can't work effectively - yeah, tell it to bitcoin miners who get together to join forces and mine more effectively

d) devs will put ridiculously high prices for their work and will be overpaid - it will be in the interest of the dev who established the project management website to allow for inflow of new developers (competition) to the system thus keeping the devs' salaries reasonable

WHO"S WITH ME?

Sorry for highjacking the thread.

From my Twitter:


https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/336834392909553664


https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/336841247929028611

That's always funny to me. This means: IT'S WRITTEN ON A PIECE OF PAPER!!1! THEY HAVE TO DO WHAT THAT PAPER SAYS!


Yeah... When those people buy their BTC someone gets that money. The people receiving that money get the 'security' of having part of the previous person power with respect to fiat. The person converting their assets to BTC are buying a chance at an increased amount of wealth later and the risk that goes with it. Innovation, by its nature, distributes power. Even if this worse case were to happen many new wealthy people who were never wealthy before would be created


Yes, they are douches. I would also add that they have never created anything of value themselves and leech off the labor of others and are incapable of putting any wealth back in to the world themselves. For me, that's one of the highest insults you can give someone - being incapable of sustaining yourself.

I disagree. BTC users are several thousand people (if not several tens of thousand). TBF are just few tens of people whose name you can read there https://bitcoinfoundation.org/members


I follow the good old anarchist principle of non-violent non-cooperation (with the so called government). This means, among other things, that you do not engage in talks with people who call themselves 'governments' untill they put a gun in your head (metaphorically, because it does not need to be a physical object that's put in your head, it may very well be a threat of using one).

Peter Vessenes of TBF stated point blank he wanted to hire a guy to go and talk to the so called government. Note it's not the government that wants to speak to TBF, it's TBF that wants to speak to the government - WTF  

Unless Peter Vessenes' statement was a joke, he shouldn't be considered to be on the same team with anarchists.

Bravo.

Hm. Them's fighting words..
The btc foundation is btc users. I consider us to be on the same team, even if they are willing to negotiate with terrorists and aren't as anarchist as me.
Authority, freely given, is helpful in organizing. Any self respecting anarchoanything will tell you
that.
Also, if someone tells you theyll represent you and you believe and trust them, you will suffer.