Topic: The Bitcoin Foundation is TOXIC and must dissolve, plus a call to action - page 5. (Read 24462 times)

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:29:50 PM

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

With lobbyists Bitcoin will fail. In fact Bitcoin has been doing very well without them.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

Maybe an organization is needed to do a job of an action group for retail users of Bitcoin, not business users?

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:43:21 PM

but what other funded group is there right now? Mind you, i'm not trying to argue for or against BTF here, just trying to be practical about the alternatives.

Let's fund one.

They don't represent me but I don't have a business so I don't have a voice and I didn't join the club.

If a new ''organization'' gets set up, you certainly could have a voice, with your money. You and other retail users of Bitcoin could crowd-finance features of their interest.

With this new money, we could convince developers to work for the new organization for money rather than (i) for BTF for free or (ii) businesses for money and political whoring.

Wouldn't hurt my feelings to have a user group. I watch the forums very carefully because I have money in the game. Close monitoring has already allowed me to watch a crash happening once and profit by selling on the down trend and buying at the bottom. Even a user entity that does nothing but track political and economic happenings and sends out daily emails would have value to me.

I've handled the finances for a number of non-profits over the years. It's unlikely that you are talking less than $500K/annum here and it's just as likely that it will be closer to $1M to start (for developers, lobbying as needed, etc...). To get the ball rolling, if there are really people out there that want to fund such an organization, I'll donate the administration/management time pro bono.

Severian

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Quote from: mikegogulski on May 19, 2013, 09:00:55 AM

THUS, IMHO, and as a Foundation Life Member, I hereby move that the Foundation dissolve itself, immediately, and enter into a binding legal plan to reimburse all donors proportionately, once legitimate expenses and outstanding debt incurred to date is covered. Additionally, I move that the Foundation immediately terminate all relations with Peter Vessenes, Mark Karpeles (sorry, dude) and Patrick Murck, and that Jon Matonis be appointed interim Executive Director, to serve during the company's receivership and through it's final dissolution as a legal entity.

I agree with this but I don't need my btc back. I donated to get Gavin paid. Otherwise, spot on.

I don't trust people seeking regulation. Their interests are aligned with the government, not with the Bitcoin community. They may think they're performing some kind of good for the community but they're actually leaving themselves and us open to surveillance and manipulation.

Loozik

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 04:09:44 PM

Wouldn't hurt my feelings to have a user group.

Great.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 04:09:44 PM

I watch the forums very carefully because I have money in the game.

I just started (account at MtGox funded a few days ago after three weeks waiting to be verified). And after I funded my account I read a thread started by retep (a developer) and got really frightened. He was advocating regulation.

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 04:09:44 PM

Even a user entity that does nothing but track political and economic happenings and sends out daily emails would have value to me.

This user entity should go further and ''buy out'' developers from BTF (this will be easy as they already have worked for free).

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: Loozik on May 19, 2013, 03:58:45 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:29:50 PM

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

With lobbyists Bitcoin will fail. In fact Bitcoin has been doing very well without them.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

Maybe an organization is needed to do a job of an action group for retail users of Bitcoin, not business users?

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:43:21 PM

but what other funded group is there right now? Mind you, i'm not trying to argue for or against BTF here, just trying to be practical about the alternatives.

Let's fund one.

They don't represent me but I don't have a business so I don't have a voice and I didn't join the club.

If a new ''organization'' gets set up, you certainly could have a voice, with your money. You and other retail users of Bitcoin could crowd-finance features of their interest.

With this new money, we could convince developers to work for the new organization for money rather than (i) for BTF for free or (ii) businesses for money and political whoring.

Wouldn't hurt my feelings to have a user group. I watch the forums very carefully because I have money in the game. Close monitoring has already allowed me to watch a crash happening once and profit by selling on the down trend and buying at the bottom. Even a user entity that does nothing but track political and economic happenings and sends out daily emails would have value to me.

Loozik

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Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Born to chew bubble gum and kick ass

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:29:50 PM

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

With lobbyists Bitcoin will fail. In fact Bitcoin has been doing very well without them.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

Maybe an organization is needed to do a job of an action group for retail users of Bitcoin, not business users?

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:43:21 PM

but what other funded group is there right now? Mind you, i'm not trying to argue for or against BTF here, just trying to be practical about the alternatives.

Let's fund one.

They don't represent me but I don't have a business so I don't have a voice and I didn't join the club.

If a new ''organization'' gets set up, you certainly could have a voice, with your money. You and other retail users of Bitcoin could crowd-finance features of their interest.

With this new money, we could convince developers to work for the new organization for money rather than (i) for BTF for free or (ii) businesses for money and political whoring.

Micon

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1) https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/board I don't know the other 3, but personally trust and respect Jon, Gavin, & Charlie

2) The conference they put on is badass and getting massive world-wide attention for bitcoin

3) IMO they are a net positive for btc and thus have my support

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: SamS on May 19, 2013, 03:26:11 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on May 19, 2013, 03:29:50 PM

for the whole lobbying government to help free market and entrepeuners, i would prefer to use the people in new hampshire as oppose to the bitcoin foundation as they seem to have a community philospohy, where as the bitcoin foundation as a more commercial philosophy.

the only way to change that is not by arguing against them, but to change them from within.. that goes for the foundation and government departments

The issue, of course, is who is going to fund the lobbying effort. The commercial groups fund it because it helps them make money. Since they are setting up to make lots of money, they have investors who will fund lobbying as another business cost.

A "community philosophy" on the other hand is not commercial. It takes visionary altruists to be willing to fund this on a large scale. I'm sure, given the right approach, that they can be found. But someone has to be willing to invest the time, energy, and brain power, to work out the mechanics. I don't want to be pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing the coordination that can lead to this outcome thus far.

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

FWIW, I should be clear that I'm not talking about Bitcoin here as much as the interface between Bitcoin and Fiat. They really are two different things to my mind. Bitcoin doesn't have to have a lobby -- but loses the chance to have influence in the discussion if it doesn't. The BTF doesn't have to be the representative organization, but what other funded group is there right now? Mind you, i'm not trying to argue for or against BTF here, just trying to be practical about the alternatives.

I'm not arguing for or against them either. There is nothing wrong with a group of professional business people having a representative org. They don't represent me but I don't have a business so I don't have a voice and I didn't join the club. Because many here are not members or business owners I think this whole discussion should be on the TBF forum where members do rightfully have a voice.

SamS

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Quote from: SamS on May 19, 2013, 03:26:11 PM

for the whole lobbying government to help free market and entrepeuners, i would prefer to use the people in new hampshire as oppose to the bitcoin foundation as they seem to have a community philospohy, where as the bitcoin foundation as a more commercial philosophy.

the only way to change that is not by arguing against them, but to change them from within.. that goes for the foundation and government departments

The issue, of course, is who is going to fund the lobbying effort. The commercial groups fund it because it helps them make money. Since they are setting up to make lots of money, they have investors who will fund lobbying as another business cost.

A "community philosophy" on the other hand is not commercial. It takes visionary altruists to be willing to fund this on a large scale. I'm sure, given the right approach, that they can be found. But someone has to be willing to invest the time, energy, and brain power, to work out the mechanics. I don't want to be pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing the coordination that can lead to this outcome thus far.

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

FWIW, I should be clear that I'm not talking about Bitcoin here as much as the interface between Bitcoin and Fiat. They really are two different things to my mind. Bitcoin doesn't have to have a lobby -- but loses the chance to have influence in the discussion if it doesn't. The BTF doesn't have to be the representative organization, but what other funded group is there right now? Mind you, i'm not trying to argue for or against BTF here, just trying to be practical about the alternatives.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: SamS on May 19, 2013, 03:26:11 PM

Quote from: coastermonger on May 19, 2013, 03:20:35 PM

for the whole lobbying government to help free market and entrepeuners, i would prefer to use the people in new hampshire as oppose to the bitcoin foundation as they seem to have a community philospohy, where as the bitcoin foundation as a more commercial philosophy.

the only way to change that is not by arguing against them, but to change them from within.. that goes for the foundation and government departments

The issue, of course, is who is going to fund the lobbying effort. The commercial groups fund it because it helps them make money. Since they are setting up to make lots of money, they have investors who will fund lobbying as another business cost.

A "community philosophy" on the other hand is not commercial. It takes visionary altruists to be willing to fund this on a large scale. I'm sure, given the right approach, that they can be found. But someone has to be willing to invest the time, energy, and brain power, to work out the mechanics. I don't want to be pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing the coordination that can lead to this outcome thus far.

Bitcoin can succeed without lobbyists.

Bitcoin can succeed without TBF. They are just an action group focusing on the needs of Bitcoin businesses.

gweedo

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I need someone to clarify something for me: what power does the bitcoin foundation actually have?

They claim to have none, but the lead developer of bitcoins has high ranking so you can read between the lines.

SamS

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Quote from: coastermonger on May 19, 2013, 03:20:35 PM

for the whole lobbying government to help free market and entrepeuners, i would prefer to use the people in new hampshire as oppose to the bitcoin foundation as they seem to have a community philospohy, where as the bitcoin foundation as a more commercial philosophy.

the only way to change that is not by arguing against them, but to change them from within.. that goes for the foundation and government departments

The issue, of course, is who is going to fund the lobbying effort. The commercial groups fund it because it helps them make money. Since they are setting up to make lots of money, they have investors who will fund lobbying as another business cost.

A "community philosophy" on the other hand is not commercial. It takes visionary altruists to be willing to fund this on a large scale. I'm sure, given the right approach, that they can be found. But someone has to be willing to invest the time, energy, and brain power, to work out the mechanics. I don't want to be pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing the coordination that can lead to this outcome thus far.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

I need someone to clarify something for me: what power does the bitcoin foundation actually have?

Political none - monetary some - consensus some but not enough to have a mandate to do anything.

coastermonger

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I need someone to clarify something for me: what power does the bitcoin foundation actually have?

franky1

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for the whole lobbying government to help free market and entrepeuners, i would prefer to use the people in new hampshire as oppose to the bitcoin foundation as they seem to have a community philospohy, where as the bitcoin foundation as a more commercial philosophy.

the only way to change that is not by arguing against them, but to change them from within.. that goes for the foundation and government departments

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)

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So if a mafia boss hires lobbyists or even bribes politicians, that is a bad business decision? Not taking a strong position, just food for thought.

wumpus

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Quote from: melpomene on May 19, 2013, 01:02:46 PM

together with an "enhancement proposal" for when people want to change the protocol.

Those already existed far before the Bitcoin Foundation:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals

gweedo

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