Topic: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take? (Read 3853 times)

Everyone should read the article in the OP, because it's brilliant and right on point.

Quoting for the community's benefit:

"Money and its associated systems of commerce are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today. As the paradigm we use to associate value with something and transfer that value amongst us, currency informs us in many ways both obvious and subtle. Currencies drive societies and are responsible for enabling mankind to transact in such a way that we can all function together.

Noble, you would say, and in its purest form, few things are nobler. However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the privileged few exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us. We all know that this doesn’t work, but why is that so? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that it is a rare person indeed who can and will subordinate themselves to the public good. After all, what kind of person is involved in this pursuit of power in the first place? The people who run our governments and monetary system are at the beck and call of special-interest groups and power-brokers who have their own agenda. The common person is powerless to do anything but accept what they are given. The result of this kind of system range from deficit financing to outright fraud and theft to human oppression. What are we to do? How can we hope to give everyone a fair playing field in life and still run our society? Hopeless…until today.

Cyptocurrencies are a brilliant answer to an age old problem – that of the Byzantine Generals. The Byzantine Generals is a problem in Mathematics and Computer Science that has seemed unsolvable for many, many years. In plain English, it asks us if it is possible to create a decentralized network that can achieve consensus. Until the Satoshi Nakamoto (a psedudonym) paper which essentially defined Bitcoin, most theoreticians thought that it was impossible. Well, it isn’t – that is exactly how Bitcoin works. I won’t delve into Bitcoin mechanics here (a separate post is required), but one of the most earth-shattering effects of cryptocurrencies is the fact that they require no central authority. No central bank, no Federal Reserve, no group of people controlling the money supply and all of the negative implications of that model. Just as the internet has empowered people through free speech and the ability to provide a testament of what occurs in our society, cryptocurrencies are threatening to level the playing field. No longer will society be at the mercy of their government and doomed to a sub-standard quality of life simply because of another’s greed and lust for power – we will finally be able to control our own financial destiny to a degree never seen before. Fiat currencies, and all of the corruption they entail, are on their way to becoming a thing of the past.

However, before I close, a warning of sorts. Nothing worthwhile is ever free – especially freedom. We will not get to the point where cryptocurrencies fulfill their potential if we do not do our part. First of all, keep in mind that people do not give up power without a fight. The governments and other power-brokers in this world have been sitting pretty for many, many years now and will do their best to maintain the status quo. Expect a lot of propaganda and associated incidents that are manufactured to make cryptocurrencies look unreliable. Be aware that these people and institutions have immense resources and will, at the very least, make a play for control of important currencies. There is a great deal at stake here. How can you help? I can see three important ways everyone can participate. First of all, speak up! Use the net to voice your opinion and support cryptocurrencies. Be aware of coming attempts to discredit this technology and do your best to expose them for what they are. Secondly, use cryptocurrencies. Simple. There are many ways to get your hands on cryptocurrencies (we give lots away on this blog – look here!). Get some and use them. We would be happy to help, so if you have any questions, go to one of our forums and ask away. General questions is a good place to start. Finally, educate yourself and spread the word. Talk to your friends and co-workers. Take the time to sit down with your children and explain what a monumentally important concept this currency is. Encourage discussion.

This is an extremely exciting time to be alive, to see the way we live as people change so very much in such a short period of time. So let’s take this chance we’ve been given and make our society a better place for everyone."

Now there's a sharp one. QFT.

true.
Also true - but it may serve to _reduce_ inflation and deflation as compared to _real_ central banking.
Only true if you believe that central banking has been successful in achieving its stated goals, as per its theoretical capability.

I see no evidence whatsoever to support such a belief.

No it doesn't solve that problem.  Not even close.  Actual printed cash is a very small portion of money supply.  The vast majority of cash relates to cash that gets borrowed and relent.  When you have a fiat currency, a central bank can adjust the actual amount of printed currency to keep inflation stable.  With BTC, you can't.  So when the economy expands, BTC will be floating around like crazy, and worth less (prices and inflation rise).  When the economy contracts, BTC will be scarce, and worth more (prices and inflation fall).

BTC only means the actual printed/mined amount remains stable, but will not eliminate inflation/deflation in the short term.  If anything, it will make the short term inflation/deflation a bigger problem.

*boggle* I don't follow your logic. Inflation and hyper-inflation have been the great evils of money since fiat was invented. Cryptocurrency solves this problem, and it does so with grace and elegance.

This is major fail of both math and logic. Let me help you out with that.

First of all, "the Winklevii" is not a two-headed mythical giant. It's two human beings, not one. You can't count their wealth as one, even if they're twins.

Each Winklevoss owns 50k BTC, right? That's 0.5% of total BTC today, each. But only half the Bitcoins have been mined. When all BTC has been mined, they will own only 0.25% of total BTC each.
Bear in mind, that's assuming neither of them or their children or grandchildren spends ONE SINGLE Bitcoin, and assuming they don't buy more.

And if they DO buy more, it only pushes the price of Bitcoin up for all of us! Anyone buying BTC is doing us a favor!

Now being the entrepreneurs that they are, it stands to reason that instead of simply hoarding all that wealth, these guys will end up investing most of it in businesses around the Bitcoin economy, helping it grow and further benefiting all of us who are invested in this new form of money. So you see, the Winkles aren't your enemy. Let go of this childish envy and embrace EVERYONE who is a part of the Bitcoin community, because ANYONE who melts their fiat for Bitcoin is helping you grow wealthy.

I  believe its way more than 85 people.  http://escholarship.org/uc/item/3jv048hx#page-1

In any case.   Inequality is not correlated to Central Banking or fractional reserve banking.   Inequality is correlated to the transition from mercantilism to globalism.   

But its complex and many factors contribute to economic inequality.   

My criticism of crypto utopianists is they ignore the economics and politics of power.   You might be able to disrupt the curent financial system,  but what replaces it will be 10 times worse without govt oversight.   I want my money to be inflationary and controlled by a Central Bank.   Cause I want to avoid something like Great Depression

The hell it will. Bitcoin opened the first door, that doesn't mean it's the only one. A currency is not going to succeed in the long run by promising that it's different this time when it's blatantly obvious that it's not.

85 people control the world with their wealth, and have as much wealth collectively as the rest of us.

Are you sure Bitcoin will be no better once it is adopted wide scale?

I think it will. Reason is, because it cannot be counterfeited. Unlike gold, it can't be used to coat tungsten bars It's based on pure unadulterated mathematics...and the codes are absolutely unbreakable.

I think Bitcoin has the ability to destroy the monopolies that have taken over...but you do have a point with centralization with regards to mining.

Maybe Quarkcoin or Vertcoin, or perhaps some other more-decentralized mining-wise coin will take over Bitcoin as the ultimate cryptocurrency...nobody knows, and only time will reveal the answer.

Bad article that ignore simple economics.  Bitcoin will not free mankind.   It will enslave mankind.

Ok let's say Winklevoss guys own 100K bit coins.   That means they already own .5% of all the bitcoin wealth.   But since there's been 12M mined coins.  Thats little more than half.   So already 2 guys own 1% of wealth for the rest of history.  That is if your libertarian utopia comes true & all central banked fiat is replaced by bitcoin.

So instead of the 1% being varied people who made money the old fashioned way like Bill Gates,  Buffett,  Masayoshi Son,  Branson,  Oprah,  etc..   Now we have class of 1% that made money on pure speculation.

So instead of businessmen manipulating politicians to give them unfair advantage. It'll be these early adopters.   And what advantage do they need?   To control the bitcoin currency of course.   They'll be bankers.   And worse than any bankers we know of today since they can monopolize a deflationary currency without a central bank.   They'll set whatever interest they'll please.  The Central Bank is not motivated by profit.   Its role is to keep the economy going by using monetary policy.   Decentralized can't do this.   And worse half the entire money supply is already owned by a tiny tiny fraction of the population. Instead of the 1%.  It will be the .0001% that owns 99%

No thanks.   Give me the Fed with its flaws over that any day.   Bitcoin won't succeed because status quo won't let it.   I don't want it either cause its already corrupted by allowing few people own most the currency

That was a very interesting read, but I honestly don't understand why that is called capitalism?

"an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

in that very article, the King was the state.
Hitler was the state
Stalin, Kim Jong-un, etc... they are the state.

I will not side with corporations, they abuse the people through the use of the state, and I consider them hybrids.

I've always considered myself a capitalist, but my definition is much more in tune with your anarchy than what you claim capitalism is.

Anarchy: "a situation of confusion and wild behavior in which the people in a country, group, organization, etc., are not controlled by rules or laws"

True, these are traditional definitions that you may reject, but in the end, we seem to simply have a semantics problem.  If we can't get the semantics down, then we'll be butting heads for no good reason!  

Capitalism always works best at the lowest level with enlightened self interest.

"a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest"

Or people ultimately help themselves when they help others.

I completely agree with this, but  on the other hand, this is kind of the wild west.  You have to watch out for yourself, survival of the fittest.  What I mean is, the reason why we live in a world where the government suffocates us with taxes, etc... is because we (as a people, not necessarily us) want to be protected to the point that every little thing that happens, someone owes us.  I slipped and fell, someone owes me, my kid bumps her head at the playground, someone owes us.  It's gotten ridiculous.

I suspect we're all here because it's like a breath of fresh air.  I've only been at this for a super short period of time, but it's given me hope for the world, honestly.  I'm old, but because of people like those of you debating here, I can see that the world still has some thinking beings and there might be hope counteracting the nanny state we live in for the future.  Lets hope it happens without violence!

Update - why I say capitalism is awful:

http://www.walkingbutterfly.com/tag/africa/

Premise 1: Capitalism is bad science.

Capitalism is a system based on deception and exploitation, with a justice system that is NOT at all well-rooted in empirical truth. If you find this claim dubious, google "the new jim crow". Read the book.
Then check out books like Zinn's "A People's History of the United States", or "Shock Doctrine", or "Earth in Mind", or "The Underground history of American Education", or anything by Slavoj Zizek...
Turn off the TV and stop watching the fucking news, instead read as many books as you can. Never stop reading. No matter what your politics or philosophy, please, I beg you, never stop reading.

Anarchism is about eliminating all unjust authority, this includes authority based on gods, violence, force, coercion, deception, gender, age, race, creed, nationality, etc.

The most important thing we can do to bring this world into reality is forget about charity and move towards a world of solidarity, kindness, and compassion.

A true anarchist society would be a place of great equality, based on (social) justice rooted strongly in reasoned observation, empiricism, and truth.

Hell, read more books generally. I had a professor once say to me, "look, if you're going to be an anarchist, please at least be a reasonable anarchist."

To which I replied, "But professor, it is reason that brought me to anarchism in the first place..."

---

Some food for thought:

"Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind."
-Kurt Vonnegut

---

"As to whether Marcos is gay: Yes, Marcos is gay in San Francisco, black in South Africa, an Asian in Europe, a Chicano in San Ysidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal,… a Jew in Germany, a Gypsy in Poland, a Kurd in Turkey, a Mohawk in Quebec, a pacifist in Bosnia, a single woman on the Metro at 10pm, a peasant without land, a gang member in the slums, an unemployed worker, an unhappy student and, of course, a Zapatista in the mountains."
-Social Justice E-Zine #27

---

"Antonio dreams of owning the land he works on, he dreams that his sweat is paid for with justice and truth, he dreams that there is a school to cure ignorance and medicine to scare away death, he dreams of having electricity in his home and that his table is full, he dreams that his country is free and that this is the result of its people governing themselves, and he dreams that he is at peace with himself and with the world. He dreams that he must fight to obtain this dream, he dreams that there must be death in order to gain life. Antonio dreams and then he awakens…. Now he knows what to do and he sees his wife crouching by the fire, hears his son crying. He looks at the sun rising in the East, and, smiling, grabs his machete. The wind picks up, he rises and walks to meet others. Something has told him that his dream is that of many and he goes to find them."
-Chiapas: The Southeast in Two Winds A Storm and a Prophecy [documentary-movie here, for the reading averse]
 
---

"Then I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be ever'where—wherever you look. Wherever they's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever they's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there... I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad an'—I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready. An' when our folk eat the stuff they raise an' live in the houses they build—why, I'll be there."
-The Grapes of Wrath

---

There are hidden stories all around us,
growing in abandoned villages in the mountains
or vacant lots in the city,
petrifying beneath our feet in the remains
of societies like nothing we’ve known,
whispering to us that things could be different.
But the politician you know is lying to you,
the manager who hires and fires you,
the landlord who evicts you,
the president of the bank that owns your house,
the professor who grades your papers,
the cop who rolls your street,
the reporter who informs you,
the doctor who medicates you,
the husband who beats you,
the mother who spanks you,
the soldier who kills for you,
and the social worker who fits your past and future into a folder in a filing cabinet
all ask
“WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITHOUT US?
It would be anarchy.”

---

"And the daughter who runs away from home,
the bus driver on the picket line,
the veteran who threw back his medal but holds on to his rifle,
the boy saved from suicide by the love of his friends,
the maid who must bow to those who can’t even cook for themselves,
the immigrant hiking across a desert to find her family on the other side,
the kid on his way to prison because he burned down a shopping mall they were building over his childhood dreams,
the neighbor who cleans up the syringes from the vacant lot, hoping someone will turn it into a garden,
the hitchhiker on the open road,
the college dropout who gave up on career and health insurance and sometimes even food so he could write revolutionary poetry for the world,
maybe all of us can feel it:
our bosses and tormentors are afraid of what they would do without us,
and their threat is a promise —
the best parts of our lives are anarchy already."
-Peter Gelderloos

There is hope. Today it is only a tiny, flickering ember, but we anarchists keep this new world alive in our hearts... and this hope in turn keeps us alive in this cold, dark world.

Interesting.  I'm not here to bash your view or get into a long debate.

I will just comment that it seems paradoxical to me, because anarchy
means no one should have any rule over anyone else, which
is basically the core principle of laissez-faire capitalism.

At least, we agree on Bitcoin and I appreciate the above comment

Yes. I am an anarcho-socialist / libertarian-socialist / social anarchist. Take your pick. Basically, I believe in the inherent goodness of human beings.

I don't believe the warped, ignorant view capitalists take on human nature. They create a brutal system, force all the monkeys into it, and then declare those monkeys brutal. It's circular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuiQOhNpJeE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB9rp_SAp2U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU

The OP's linked article really hit the nail on the head. As far as I'm concerned cryptocurrency is the most powerful technology for human liberation since the internet.

The importance of this invention cannot possibly be overstated, and its socio-political repercussions will echo through our world for decades to come.

soooo....just so we're all clear -- you're anti-capitalism and pro-anarchy? 

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
"The only justifiable purpose of political institutions is to ensure the unhindered development of the individual." - Albert Einstein

I'm a crypto fan and would love for it to work out and grow huge and develop new ideas that can help the world. Let's be honest for a second, almost everything crypto is shady, unprofessional and most of all has a huge barrier to entry on newbs because almost everything related is a scam. It's very hard to find real professional websites and networks that stay working, are stable and don't go down often. Crypto has brought out all of the worse IT idiots throughout the world and let them loose on projects here.

Granted lots of good things have come and there are some competent secure and stable sites but NOT much at all. Look at BTC $1,000 USD+ per coin now its dropped under $600 but damn that is some money! All I'm trying to say is crypto will NEVER come close to substituting fiat or pass it if we all as a community do not raise our standards and I mean really raise them I feel like its fucking 1999 again with all this unsecured shit and trojans floating at every stop. ALT coins that have malicious code in the wallets and software and are Premined the fact that these even exist here shows that our quality is not even remotely high one bit.

There are a few good trust worthy members here on this forum and not everything is explained as above but the majority is thats our problem. Stay positive keep the good news about crypto alive. The only way crypocurrency will have any importance in our future is letting the new generation have an easy entry because they will be the ones who will build crypto for the future. Easy entry is what crypto lacks but is most important.

"The measure of the state’s success is that the word anarchy frightens people, while the word state does not. We are like those African slaves who believe that their master is their benefactor, or those Russians who still believe that Stalin was their guardian."
-Joseph Sobran

cant tell if that is sarcasm

Very good discussion going on here, this is a topic that affects us all.