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Topic: The Holy Grail! I wish I could kiss the author of Bitmessage on his face. - page 14. (Read 92719 times)

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo

I don't think a lot of people realise this but localbitcoins.com is actually a centralised server model ... and does anyone know how much data they retain about all the recorded transactions/messaging that passes through their server? ... wonder which jurisdiction/locale the localbitcoins.com server is located in and what their privacy policy is by the way?


Correct, the next step is to make it a distributed P2P application. And there will be some dynamic changing local agencies provide trading with enough volume

The benefit for this approach is: Like in a private auktion, if Alice do a bank transfer to Bob and buy some bitcoin from him, banks don't know the reason behind that transaction, the privacy is kept very well. If you do the transaction through an escrow, then banks will know clearly this money is going into a bitcoin exchange, at least that escrow holds all the information about all the transactions related to exchange


The escrow is performed by the smart contracts function on the OT server  ... https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/tree/master/scripts/smartcontracts/escrow how would the bank have any idea it was not just regular user making a transfer?

That OT server must be authorised by banks to access their SEPA transaction data, without that authorization it can only prove a bitcoin transaction, not a fiat money transaction

You changed from "banks will know clearly this money is going into a bitcoin exchange" to "OT server must be authorised by banks to access their SEPA transaction data" ... which are obviously two different issues. Interfaces with legacy banking system are problematic but they can't stop individuals making transfers or their money would become more useless than it already is ... the more barriers they put up to personal transfers the less valuable their money becomes ...
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Any colored-coin issuer can fully-obey KYC / AML.

Are you sure about it?
Something tells me that the simple fact that a colored coin issuer can't control where his coins go to already makes it impossible for them to implement such restrictions on most jurisdictions.
Wasn't that the very reason ecash was dropped by banks?

But suppose it's legal. If I'm getting this right (and that's a big if, I confess I need to study this much more), in this new scenario MtGox-like institutions would emit colored-coins which could then be exchanged against normal bitcoins in a p2p, hard-to-track way. But to get fiat in and out, you'd have to go to your fiat-holder and then everything would be tracked as it is today. You'd still need to trust your fiat-holder not to commit fraud or disappear with your money, but, for sure, that'd be a harder coup to play than disappearing with your bitcoins.

So, we would no longer need to worry with "trade engine lags" and alike, and we would no longer need to store our BTC in a shared wallet. Any other big advantage?

Question: Wouldn't a p2p marketplace for escrows which do not hold your fiat be even better than that? The escrows only need to intervene when there's a dispute. But traders are still responsible for transferring funds to one-another, as in OTC. BTC-funds would be locked in 2-of-3 addresses, waiting for the fiat transfer to complete. No "bank-account to hold them all". If you have an API to access your bank account (think merchants) you can even automate everything, as the look-up for escrows could be based on deterministic criteria.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination

I don't think a lot of people realise this but localbitcoins.com is actually a centralised server model ... and does anyone know how much data they retain about all the recorded transactions/messaging that passes through their server? ... wonder which jurisdiction/locale the localbitcoins.com server is located in and what their privacy policy is by the way?


Correct, the next step is to make it a distributed P2P application. And there will be some dynamic changing local agencies provide trading with enough volume

The benefit for this approach is: Like in a private auktion, if Alice do a bank transfer to Bob and buy some bitcoin from him, banks don't know the reason behind that transaction, the privacy is kept very well. If you do the transaction through an escrow, then banks will know clearly this money is going into a bitcoin exchange, at least that escrow holds all the information about all the transactions related to exchange


The escrow is performed by the smart contracts function on the OT server  ... https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/tree/master/scripts/smartcontracts/escrow how would the bank have any idea it was not just regular user making a transfer?

That OT server must be authorised by banks to access their SEPA transaction data, without that authorization it can only prove a bitcoin transaction, not a fiat money transaction
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo

I don't think a lot of people realise this but localbitcoins.com is actually a centralised server model ... and does anyone know how much data they retain about all the recorded transactions/messaging that passes through their server? ... wonder which jurisdiction/locale the localbitcoins.com server is located in and what their privacy policy is by the way?


Correct, the next step is to make it a distributed P2P application. And there will be some dynamic changing local agencies provide trading with enough volume

The benefit for this approach is: Like in a private auktion, if Alice do a bank transfer to Bob and buy some bitcoin from him, banks don't know the reason behind that transaction, the privacy is kept very well. If you do the transaction through an escrow, then banks will know clearly this money is going into a bitcoin exchange, at least that escrow holds all the information about all the transactions related to exchange


The escrow is performed by the smart contracts function on the OT server  ... https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/tree/master/scripts/smartcontracts/escrow how would the bank have any idea it was not just regular user making a transfer?
hero member
Activity: 544
Merit: 500
 ..... This is the sound of Inevitability.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
This is not possible, if you take all of your money out of banks and store them locally, banks will all go bankrupt  Grin

Well actually due to Fractional Reserve banking all banks are "by their very definition" bankrupt. Grin

Like others I am very much looking forward to seeing where this leads.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
* Solution for the Problem with interfacing into the legacy banking system: *

We simply create our own banking system outside of the legacy banking system bypassing old banks all together.

We as individuals create out own mini-p2p-banks with a small or large safe at home to store cash/silver/gold/whatever.
We build trust by having trusted individuals inspect/audit the mini-banks cash holdings and security on a regular basis.

Each mini-p2p-bank builds security and trust scores as independent private trusted auditors inspect their "banks".

It would be smart to store your money at different banks to protect your wealth against a bank crash.
The mini-p2p-banks handle money transports between themselves.


This is not possible, if you take all of your money out of banks and store them locally, banks will all go bankrupt  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1001
Just like a gateway in ripple, this is the point of weakness for all the P2P exchange design: That escrow/gateway must be able to communicate with banks through an authorized channel and that channel is controlled by banks

Yes, as long as you have to communicate with legacy bank systems, you will have to follow their rules and regulations KYC etc...
Do not expect this to make proper exchanges obsolete all of the sudden. You need to take the commerce completely out of legacy bank system to not depended on whims of the banks. Or we could just buy a few banks... and have them run some OT servers.



Vladimir, you can be accused of many things, but a failure of the imagination is never one of them.

I just wish someone would give this OT/BM idea as much air time as Ripple is getting.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination

I don't think a lot of people realise this but localbitcoins.com is actually a centralised server model ... and does anyone know how much data they retain about all the recorded transactions/messaging that passes through their server? ... wonder which jurisdiction/locale the localbitcoins.com server is located in and what their privacy policy is by the way?


Correct, the next step is to make it a distributed P2P application. And there will be some dynamic changing local agencies provide trading with enough volume

The benefit for this approach is: Like in a private auktion, if Alice do a bank transfer to Bob and buy some bitcoin from him, banks don't know the reason behind that transaction, the privacy is kept very well. If you do the transaction through an escrow, then banks will know clearly this money is going into a bitcoin exchange, at least that escrow holds all the information about all the transactions related to exchange


full member
Activity: 215
Merit: 100
Shamantastic!
Guys, you do realize that we are building here the first true AI, an agent based one, don't you? If Bitcoin is not a Singularity it is a prerequisite for one.

This particular rabbit hole could be very deep...


Interesting, hadn't thought of that dimension ... but it indeed may take on a 'mind' of its own depending on the bots that will come to inhabit the various asset pair channels ... like an AI springing forth from the emergent behaviour of the collective of bots you mean?

Herds next to watering holes(BMOT) as opposed to wild jungles(free-for-all exchanges *GOX). WoT is powerful and unknown, just look what Bitcoin did to financial tools in a short time - now imagine contract law, commodities, documents, voting...
We will build the trading bots to protect our wealth that can act in unison or pick and choose which bots best appeal to our current risk/reward. OT is the Wilderbeast Consortium and BM is the trumpet call.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Guys, you do realize that we are building here the first true AI, an agent based one, don't you? If Bitcoin is not a Singularity it is a prerequisite for one.

This particular rabbit hole could be very deep...


Interesting, hadn't thought of that dimension ... but it indeed may take on a 'mind' of its own depending on the bots that will come to inhabit the various asset pair channels ... like an AI springing forth from the emergent behaviour of the collective of bots you mean?


Edit: ... and in this vein I propose the name for the OSS bundle comprised of Bitcoin Bitmessage Open-Transactions be the BITBOT bundle  ... and same name "BitBOT" for any AI that might spring forth  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1011
Sounds very exciting. But I don't fully understand it yet, I tried to read some material on Open Transactions and BitMessage but still missing the point. Can anyone summarize what it is that OT and BM do, exactly?

OT is a system for federated issuing and transacting of various currencies. It can work with and without blockchain-based currencies.

Bitmessage is a p2p system for messages as well as subscriptions/broadcasts.

In our proposed protocol, OT federated servers will utilize Bitmessage as a discovery layer to enable cross-server escrow, for the purposes of market trading and wiring of funds between OT servers (and in/out of the legacy banking system.)
Thanks a lot man, much appreciated!

As a non-native English speaker, my interpretation of 'federated' is somewhat ambiguous, would that be something like 'based on a universally agreed upon protocol' or something else?

And how do you mean 'discovery' in this context: finding eachother i.e. bringing people (or the services they request and provide) together?
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
For those asking for hand-holding....

Code:
git clone git://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions
cd Open-Transactions

See the docs folder for instructions on installing the pre-requisites.

Once you have those installed, this is usually what I do to build:

Code:
autoreconf -vif -Wall
./configure --with-java

(The reason I configure with java is so I can run the test-GUI.)

Then build the project:

Code:
make
make install

You can also do "make -j2" or -j8 etc to make it build faster, depending on how many CPUs you have (and how much RAM.)

There is also now a tarball installable through apt-get though I don't know if it's the most recent version (better to build it yourself, because then you can always "git pull && make install" to update to the latest version.)

Once you have it installed, I suggest you start by copying over the test data:

Code:
mkdir ~/.ot
cp -R Open-Transactions/sample-data/ot-sample-data/* ~/.ot

Then start up the server:

Code:
otserver

Then you should be able to use the command line tool (in a separate window):

Code:
opentxs help
opentxs list
opentxs stat
opentxs shownyms
opentxs newnym

Etc. You can also make scripts by putting "!/usr/bin/env ot" at the top of the script. (See the scripts/samples folder.)

If you want to try to OT test GUI (Moneychanger):

Code:
java -jar Moneychanger

(You will probably have to tell it the /usr/local/lib folder, and then select an image from your harddrive.)

People ask why they have to select an image. The reason is so that hackers cannot do phishing attacks by tricking you with a fake passphrase dialog. They will have no way of anticipating which image you have selected to appear on that dialog, so it will look different for every user.

I should add that the test GUI is not representative of an actual OT GUI. It's just a visual representation of the API, for testing/developing purposes. To see what an actual GUI would look like, check out the screenshots of the upcoming Monetas iPhone app.

You can get support on the OT IRC channel, #opentransactions at irc.freenode.net

Some people have contacted me asking about investing. I suggest you contact our CEO Johann Gevers: [email protected]
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
I would like to suggest that they change the name if this will indeed become a successful P2P exchange. Perhaps a more interesting name would be beneficial later on when people wonder what it is.

Thinking about marketing and names I suggest to call it Nipple somewhat similar to GNU Smiley

Nipple - Nipple is not a [Ri]pple

EDIT: or more simple version

Not a [R]ipple
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
Fellowtraveler, maybe we arrange something to test out your "voting pool" and BM-related ideas?

As for my comment you quoted, you know what is of greatest interest to Bitcoiners is how can it be used to create distributed exchanges.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
Sounds like a far superior alternative to Ripple. One that the community can get behind.

What's the important difference with Ripple?
It still seems to be IOUs.

Ripple is centralized, closed source and it is not based on "the same underlying crypto" as bitcoin.
Everything on their site & wiki is lies.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 251
if I can contribute any design content(Free of charge) I will. Smiley

If you would like to try your hand at an Open-Transactions logo, that would be great.

I have a feeling it means the end of the not so open Ripple idea.

I'm a fan of the Ripple idea (credit lines) and have always said that I would eventually build it into OT.

(Perhaps sooner rather than later, now that cross-server discovery is solved.)

As for the current Ripple incarnation, I hope their technology proves out and that they are successful.

There is no need to bash people who are trying to contribute to monetary freedom.

Fantastic!

One thing I'm curious about is the propagation and validation. With the transaction notification being passed through bitmessage, acceptance is still dependent upon the receiver, correct? Txs therefore can be instantaneous, but might also incur a variable delay?

--- The transaction notification is used in server-to-server wiring of funds, to unlock the escrow on both sides.
--- The servers can negotiate this between each other directly (since Alice and Bob have notified each server of the other's existence.)
--- In essence, this piece is negotiated directly by the two smart contracts.
--- This doesn't have to go through Bitmessage; that's only used for discovery process.
--- The parties can also directly notice the servers, but this is not necessary for it to work.

> Txs therefore can be instantaneous, but might also incur a variable delay?

I'd say this is accurate, though I would expect it to basically seem instantaneous.

Fellowtraveler, this is very exciting. I've been reading your OT stuff for a while and trying to absorb it all. Are you or your new company going to take OT now and develop it into this P2P exchange application? I think you should because it doesn't look like anyone else is ready to produce a product like this. I'm sure you could garner some serious donations if necessary since you've already proven yourself by putting OT together.

On the commercial side, we have just closed our seed round, and started our second round.
Screenshots of upcoming Monetas iPhone app

I can say the p2p exchange technology is definitely coming, probably first in some future incarnation of our systray app,  but the timing will depend.

On the open-source side, any donations will be re-donated to various OT contributors for their work.
1NtTPVVjDsUfDWybS4BwvHpG2pdS9RnYyQ

I would like a process walkthrough to understand this better.

For specific step-by-step walkthrus of the Bitmessage-related protocols, see the paste bins I posted at the top of this thread.

Here are more details to help clarify...

CURRENCIES

--- Blockchain-based commodities. (BTC, LTC, etc)

Keep in mind: Blockchain-based currencies such as BTC will not have a proper "issuer" on OT; instead they will be uploaded directly by users into voting pools, where an OT server can issue units based on the BTC yet simultaneously are incapable of stealing those BTC. (They cannot steal them from the voting pool because they are protected by multi-sig, and they cannot steal them internally because the OT servers are incapable of forging receipts.)

--- Colored coins. (These are real-world assets such as gold, dollars, pork bellies, etc which are accounted-for using satoshis on the blockchain, and are redeemed by their issuer upon demand.)

Important things to remember about colored coins:

1. The issuer of colored coins can never be held liable to freeze specific satoshis, because they have no control over the ledger (it's on the blockchain.) Which is to say, the colored coins actually do circulate entirely beyond their control. Just as the Federal Reserve issues dollars which then circulate entirely outside of their control, and thus they cannot be held liable for what happens while they are in circulation.

2. This breaks the link on OT between the issuer and the transaction server, since the issuer no longer needs to directly issue their gold onto the OT server. Instead, the issuer uses colored coins, and then those get issued by wallets into voting pools, to make them available for trading on OT servers. This means that pressure against the issuer can never result in withdrawing their currency from an OT server, because they don't have to issue it directly onto an OT server, for people to still trade it there.

3. Most people will not ever need to redeem their colored coins directly with the issuer of those colored coins. As long as the issuer is good for them, they will be able to redeem their colored coins directly through other wallets. So the issuer only provides redemption "of last resort."

4. Anyone who does redeem colored coins at a colored coin issuer, will be subject to the laws in that jurisdiction, AML/KYC, etc. (So there is no need to violate those laws.)

5. Anyone who buys/sells colored coins will not incur capital gains tax risk, since colored coins, unlike BTC, do not go up in value. (Meaning, a $100 colored coin does not change in value between when it was bought and sold, and thus does not incur capital gains. Consult your attorney on that one BTW.)


LEGACY BANKS

--- Transfers to-and-from the legacy banking system are performed via ACH in the USA, and SEPA in Europe.

--- SEPA transfers are instant. ACH transfers can take 3-5 days. Either way, the OT side of such transactions will use OT's ability to perform escrow.

--- Although people will have the ability to go in-and-out of the banking system, I don't expect this to happen with every transaction. I do expect it to happen sometimes.

--- I expect that some of these transfers will happen P2P (SEPA is particularly suited for this) as well as through professional services (probably similar to Ripple gateways.) Any OT Nym could perform such functions.

--- We can automate such things in the wallets, making the actions user-centric, instead of provider-centric.


OPEN-TRANSACTIONS FEDERATED SERVERS

--- Any Nym will be able to upload BTC or Colored Coins into a voting pool (where the OT server cannot steal them) and the OT server then issues the appropriate units to that Nym via OT's unforgeable receipts.

--- The Nyms are already able to perform escrow with each other, on any OT server.

--- The Nyms are already able to trade one currency against another, on any OT server.

--- Already you can have the same currencies issued onto multiple OT servers.


BITMESSAGE

--- Bitmessage makes it possible for Nyms to discover each other and OT servers. Thus:

--- Bitmessage makes it possible for Nyms to perform currency wires from one OT server to another, through other Nyms.

--- Bitmessage makes it possible for Nyms to perform cross-server trades (by enabling discovery.)

--- Once discovery has taken place, Nyms can perform escrow, as well as market trading, since OT already supports those things.

For specific step-by-step walkthrus of the Bitmessage-related protocols, see the paste bins I posted at the top of this thread.


Whoa...

so, in theory, you can have a zero balance bank account and whenever you go to buy something you load your debit card with just enough to pay the bill by paying with Bitcoins...correct?

I suppose so, yes.

And someone can just write up a program to quickly exchange dollars for bitcoins just for that purpose...

Yes, although at some point we are going to have it in the Monetas systray app. (For starters.)

Bitcoin debit card...

Or is there still a delay?

The delay in/out of a legacy bank account will depend on the legacy banking API you are dealing with.

As far as I know, SEPA is near-instantaneous. ACH, not so much.

What's the important difference with Ripple?

I can't really say, I haven't seen their code.

It still seems to be IOUs.

It's not the same as credit lines, no.

Not that credit lines are a bad idea -- I will eventually be adding them to OT as well.
(Especially now that cross-server discovery is solved…)

Well sure, OT doesn't need them, there doesn't seem to be a "network" per se.
(You can't spam the network.)

---> As far as I understand. I'm still in my bitmessage/Open Transactions reading.

I believe that Bitmessage uses proof-of-work to prevent spamming.

Also consider that most messages can go directly through OT itself -- Bitmessage is only for discovery.

Also -- even if we swap out the discovery layer for something else, OT should continue to work just fine. (But so far I think Bitmessage is perfect.)

Ok, so the point of bitmessage is to be the network, while Open Transaction is the notary.

Correct?

This is basically correct.

Bitmessage, however, would only be the network for discovery purposes. All other communications can go directly between OT servers, and P2P between OT wallets.

Fellowtraveler-- if you're willing to do some hand-holding I'd be really interested in making a Chaumian cash transaction through an OT server.

OT's cash instrument uses Chaumian blinding.

However, there are other instruments on OT which do not use Chaumian blinding: cheques, invoices, recurring payments, market trades, smart contracts, etc.

These other instruments, while not blinded, are still pseudonymous, and the receipts are destructible. (It can still prove everything without the receipt history, as long as you have the last signed receipt.)

Sure, OT was around for a while. It just "did not click".

It clicked for me.

all we need is an application that combines the two together to get a running P2P exchange, right?

Yes.

Sounds very exciting. But I don't fully understand it yet, I tried to read some material on Open Transactions and BitMessage but still missing the point. Can anyone summarize what it is that OT and BM do, exactly?

OT is a system for federated issuing and transacting of various currencies. It can work with and without blockchain-based currencies.

Bitmessage is a p2p system for messages as well as subscriptions/broadcasts.

In our proposed protocol, OT federated servers will utilize Bitmessage as a discovery layer to enable cross-server escrow, for the purposes of market trading and wiring of funds between OT servers (and in/out of the legacy banking system.)

You can read more details above.

Also, imagine a hypothetical world where this has already completely been worked out, and a OT+BM based P2P exchange system is fully up and running. Suppose I want to buy bitcoins with euros. Two questions:

  • 1. Where or how do I find someone who wants to sell his BTC, and how do we negotiate a price? (as is currently done by the existing exchanges in their market places)
  • 2. Where (or to who) do I wire transfer my EUR, and how can I trust I will get the BTC in return?

Please see details above, especially the protocol details in the paste bins I posted.

Oh man I can't wait for OT to be fully functional and usable

OT is fully-functional and usable. At least, the server and command line, as well as the API and client-side scripts.

There is also a test-GUI, and Monetas will be coming out with real GUIs very soon.

But the real beauty is the things you can build with OT, by integrating it into your own projects.

We are working on the voting pools, and the p2p exchange stuff will take a bit longer since it was just designed last night.
(Although who knows, if the second round of funding goes well, we might have it out a lot sooner.)

I should mention, BTW, that OT is completely open-source, and any products released by Monetas will be open-source as well.

THe whole point of using OT is untraceability, it's implemented around the Chaumian blind token technology, if you don't want untraceability, you don't want to use OT.

This isn't entirely correct. OT cash is untraceable. But if you want to prove you paid someone, then use an OT cheque instead. (And you'll have a cheque receipt…)

From my understanding of FellowTraveler's initial post, BM is used for matching Bids and Asks by creating an exchange protocol on top of BM that interested parties can subscribe to.

The exchange protocol wouldn't be over Bitmessage, it would be internal to OT.

Bitmessage would be used for the discovery process. See my paste bins.

This won't work. Any bank that starts OT server will be closed for violating AML.

I don't think banks will have to run OT servers.

Any colored-coin issuer can fully-obey KYC / AML.

The issuer would be entirely divorced from the OT transaction servers, which could operate on Tor.

------------------------------------------------------

I can also reveal that Adam Back believes he has solved the problem of homomorphic amounts (so the OT server can't see any of the amounts, on any of the transactions it processes.)

I will be integrating credlib into OT soon and also working with Adam on adding his homomorphic code to OT as well.
full member
Activity: 215
Merit: 100
Shamantastic!
Slowing it down:
- I was looking for Bitcoin before it was created by Satoshi
- I discovered bitcoin in April 2010 while studying Ven/Ripple/Chaumian blinding - came back in December 2010 after surgery(sux) and was please to find it had reached beta/press/attention.
- I was researching complementary WoT systems for a theory of S-curve disruptive technologies - Bitcoin was the prize

TLDR;
I am not trying to talk above people, just to a right-brain populace. Theorists as opposed to engineers.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
* Solution for the Problem with interfacing into the legacy banking system: *

We simply create our own banking system outside of the legacy banking system bypassing old banks all together.

We as individuals create out own mini-p2p-banks with a small or large safe at home to store cash/silver/gold/whatever.
We build trust by having trusted individuals inspect/audit the mini-banks cash holdings and security on a regular basis.

Each mini-p2p-bank builds security and trust scores as independent private trusted auditors inspect their "banks".

It would be smart to store your money at different banks to protect your wealth against a bank crash.
The mini-p2p-banks handle money transports between themselves.


And then mini-banks have their assets seized by the feds for violating regulations.
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