The Legitimization and Inevitability of Bitcoin - page 3.

evoorhees

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Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM

The guy before picked up on one section of an irrelevant definition from a place called dictionary.com to argue that bitcoin is not fiat currency. I then posted an equally relevant section of an encylopaedia article to satirise his point.

Hint: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it fixed to any objective standard => it is fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat, sorry

Alright bud, listen. I picked that definition from dictionary.com (you call it "a place?") to provide the definition of that term. This definition is wholly relevant to its usage in monetary economics, as a "fiat currency" is a currency "by decree" of a ruler or government.

We could go to another "place" and get another definition, this time of "fiat money," specifically. The first line from Wikipedia: "Fiat money is money that has value only because of government regulation or law."

Given these two definitions provided, we can observe your statement, "bitcoin is a fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat" and it becomes apparent that you don't quite know of what you speak. Bitcoin is in no way a fiat currency. It is not created by any government. Its value does not come from a mandate for usage.

And on "intrinsic value"... nothing has intrinsic value, for that would mean the thing has value without a human to value it. Things have value to the extent they are useful to humans and scarce. Bitcoin is both absurdly useful and limited in quantity, thus it commands a market price. You don't have to agree with the price, but at least try to make sure your statements regarding fiat money and value are valid.

netrin

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I've heard Ben Bernanke knows a few things about fiat currency. Well one day he said:

Quote from: Ben Bernanke

"...Indeed, under a fiat (that is, paper) money system, a government (in practice, the central bank in cooperation with other agencies) should always be able to generate increased nominal spending and inflation, even when the short-term nominal interest rate is at zero. The conclusion that deflation is always reversible under a fiat money system follows from basic economic reasoning.

If that were a definition, I'd say bitcoin is not fiat. He continues in the next paragraph:

Quote from: Ben Bernanke

"Like gold, U.S. dollars have value only to the extent that they are strictly limited in supply. But the U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost. By increasing the number of U.S. dollars in circulation, or even by credibly threatening to do so, the U.S. government can also reduce the value of a dollar in terms of goods and services, which is equivalent to raising the prices in dollars of those goods and services. We conclude that, under a paper-money system, a determined government can always generate higher spending and hence positive inflation."

Surawit

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Quote from: GoWest on September 11, 2011, 08:47:02 PM

Don't even bother trying to have an intelligent conversation on these forums. It's like the mental institution in 12-Monkeys.

Are you the guy who wrote the article? No wonder you won't/can't defend it.

"Bitcoin is so fantastic, its so efficient there are no fees! Wonderful! Of course to make it actually usable and as good as normal money we'll need exchange services, payment processors to absorb the volatility, a service to protect consumers by allowing chargebacks, etc...." lol.

You end up just invoking some magical future in which all these bitcoin services are super-efficient. Why can't I do that with normal banking? Why can't I invoke a magic future in which banks increase the efficiency of their wire services to the point that fees are negligible when transferring currency between countries? It's not like normal banking is static and unchanging. A few years ago someone in france would have to pay exchange fees when sending his francs to a german. Now, he can send that cash straight over at very little cost.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 08:38:29 PM

Just because you are too simple to follow an argument, it does not mean that argument is intended to obfuscate.

The guy before picked up on one section of an irrelevant definition from a place called dictionary.com to argue that bitcoin is not fiat currency. I then posted an equally relevant section of an encylopaedia article to satirise his point.

Hint: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it fixed to any objective standard => it is fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat, sorry

his definition was particularly appropriate. fiat currency is imposed by gov't. bitcoin is not.

bitcoin has backing. it is backed by the conscious decisions of thousands upon thousands of computer owners/citizens of the world to dedicate enormous computational and electrical power and fiat USD's to ensuring bitcoin's survival thru verification and protection of the block chain. and gov'ts and banks can do nothing about this.

you're right in that bitcoin is not fixed to anything; its its own currency. we just happen to like to monitor how its doing in terms of USD's. but very soon, we will be monitoring how the USD is doing in terms of BTC.

netrin

sr. member

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FirstBits: 168Bc

Fiat is just a word and bitcoin hasn't yet been well defined in the internet, banking, legal vernacular. Yes, bitcoin has value 'by decree' of the people who verify and use it. By such a loose definition, gold is fiat money as well, and even kings have declared it's value and stamped their mugs on it. But the average guy on the street, should he have even heard the word, understands that fiat is an object that is generally useless and undesirable, if not for an authority's insistence upon its use to pay taxes and the community's acquiescence. Likewise for bitcoin which is also inherently worthless if not for its unique transactional function and the fact that people give it value.

GoWest

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betwithbtc.com

Don't even bother trying to have an intelligent conversation on these forums. It's like the mental institution in 12-Monkeys.

Colargol

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 08:29:14 PM

From Wikipedia.org (bold added):

FIAT, an acronym for Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino^[2] (English: Italian Automobile Factory of Turin), is an Italian automobile manufacturer, engine manufacturer, financial and industrial group based in Turin in the region of Piedmont. Fiat was founded in 1899 by a group of investors including Giovanni Agnelli. During its more than century long history, Fiat has also manufactured railway engines and carriages, military vehicles and aircraft. As of 2009, Fiat (not including Chrysler) was the world's ninth largest carmaker and the largest in Italy.^[3]

Fiat

Bitcoin

Surawit

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Just because you are too simple to follow an argument, it does not mean that argument is intended to obfuscate.

The guy before picked up on one section of an irrelevant definition from a place called dictionary.com to argue that bitcoin is not fiat currency. I then posted an equally relevant section of an encylopaedia article to satirise his point.

Hint: Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it fixed to any objective standard => it is fiat currency by almost all useful definitions of the word fiat, sorry

netrin

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 251

FirstBits: 168Bc

Bitcoin is cash. I am buying works of art with paper cash and can sell them across the world with as much finality and assurance as I bought the pieces. I make real personal exchanges based on trust with no intermediaries. I don't believe a bank will recreate this. A banking institution might create a slicker, faster, easier, insured and reversible transaction, and under such a system we can be happily unproductive consumers.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 08:32:00 PM

Sorry, I thought we were playing the quote-websites-with-the-word-fiat-in-them-to-show-bitcoin-is-not-fiat game

distract=obfuscate

Surawit

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Sorry, I thought we were playing the quote-websites-with-the-word-fiat-in-them-to-show-bitcoin-is-not-fiat game

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 08:29:14 PM

Quote from: evoorhees on September 11, 2011, 08:14:57 PM

From Dictionary.com (bold added):

fi·at [fee-aht, -at; fahy-uht, -at] Show IPA
noun
1.
an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. Synonyms: authorization, directive, ruling, mandate, diktat, ukase.
2.
a fixed form of words containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction, or authorization.
3.
an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

From Wikipedia.org (bold added):

FIAT, an acronym for Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino^[2] (English: Italian Automobile Factory of Turin), is an Italian automobile manufacturer, engine manufacturer, financial and industrial group based in Turin in the region of Piedmont. Fiat was founded in 1899 by a group of investors including Giovanni Agnelli. During its more than century long history, Fiat has also manufactured railway engines and carriages, military vehicles and aircraft. As of 2009, Fiat (not including Chrysler) was the world's ninth largest carmaker and the largest in Italy.^[3]

when one can't address the merits of the argument, distract.

Surawit

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Merit: 0

Quote from: evoorhees on September 11, 2011, 08:14:57 PM

From Dictionary.com (bold added):

fi·at [fee-aht, -at; fahy-uht, -at] Show IPA
noun
1.
an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. Synonyms: authorization, directive, ruling, mandate, diktat, ukase.
2.
a fixed form of words containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction, or authorization.
3.
an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

From Wikipedia.org (bold added):

FIAT, an acronym for Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino^[2] (English: Italian Automobile Factory of Turin), is an Italian automobile manufacturer, engine manufacturer, financial and industrial group based in Turin in the region of Piedmont. Fiat was founded in 1899 by a group of investors including Giovanni Agnelli. During its more than century long history, Fiat has also manufactured railway engines and carriages, military vehicles and aircraft. As of 2009, Fiat (not including Chrysler) was the world's ninth largest carmaker and the largest in Italy.^[3]

evoorhees

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1023

Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: Synaptic on September 11, 2011, 08:08:18 PM

Bitcoin is a fiat currency, if you want to pretend it's a currency.

From Dictionary.com (bold added):

fi·at [fee-aht, -at; fahy-uht, -at] Show IPA
noun
1.
an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. Synonyms: authorization, directive, ruling, mandate, diktat, ukase.
2.
a fixed form of words containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction, or authorization.
3.
an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

Synaptic

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Quote from: evoorhees on September 11, 2011, 08:06:42 PM

Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 07:13:21 PM

You object to "mindless USD printing". Isn't that what bitcoin printing/mining is by design? It's unalterable, there is no human input at all, it is literally mindless. In contrast a great deal of thought goes into how much USD to print each month... You may disagree with the reasoning they use, but it's stupid to call it "mindless".

Just as Americans were supposed to have "a nation of laws and not men," Bitcoin is in fact a currency of laws and not men. Bitcoin is at the whim of no person or group, and while this makes early adoption difficult, strange, and awkward, it is in fact the greatest strength of the system.

And indeed, what would be the point of a central group creating a decentralized money system? If the transaction ledger is centralized, then it possesses none of those benefits so crucial to Bitcoin. If the transaction ledger is decentralized, then why would a central group benefit from creating it, for once created it would be beyond their control.

Look, if you don't like Bitcoin, then don't touch it. But I'd prefer not to touch USD or other fiat currencies. Unfortunately, I'm not given this freedom.

Bitcoin is a fiat currency, if you want to pretend it's a currency.

evoorhees

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1023

Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 07:13:21 PM

You object to "mindless USD printing". Isn't that what bitcoin printing/mining is by design? It's unalterable, there is no human input at all, it is literally mindless. In contrast a great deal of thought goes into how much USD to print each month... You may disagree with the reasoning they use, but it's stupid to call it "mindless".

Just as Americans were supposed to have "a nation of laws and not men," Bitcoin is in fact a currency of laws and not men. Bitcoin is at the whim of no person or group, and while this makes early adoption difficult, strange, and awkward, it is in fact the greatest strength of the system.

And indeed, what would be the point of a central group creating a decentralized money system? If the transaction ledger is centralized, then it possesses none of those benefits so crucial to Bitcoin. If the transaction ledger is decentralized, then why would a central group benefit from creating it, for once created it would be beyond their control.

Look, if you don't like Bitcoin, then don't touch it. But I'd prefer not to touch USD or other fiat currencies. Unfortunately, I'm not given this freedom.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 07:13:21 PM

In contrast a great deal of thought goes into how much USD to print each month... You may disagree with the reasoning they use, but it's stupid to call it "mindless".

99.99% of the population that isn'a banker disagrees with mindless printing of USD's which bankers get first access to at 0% interest. if you or i go to the bank for a mortgage we get to pay 6-7%. the system as it is rapes taxpayers at the expense of banker bonuses and the game is rigged. you know better.

Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 07:13:21 PM

OK, even if you are right (you're not)... Whats to stop them making a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency bankcoin? They could alter the protocol so (say) instead of all 50btc or whatever going to miners for each block mined, a percentage of it would go straight to their accounts. Functionally identical to bitcoin for end users, with the exception that conventional banks are holding most of the reserves instead of nerds

b/c the majority of computing nodes and power is not owned by bankers and they will NOT go along with enriching banks. their block chain won't get off the mark. the gig is up Man. get used to it. the power of the internet is going to take down your handlers once and for all.

btw, its happening as we speak as the Greeks are going to f*ck all the banker debt they owe.

Surawit

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Quote from: cypherdoc on September 11, 2011, 06:57:18 PM

if they don't care or like money printing then you have nothing to worry about and shouldn't be wasting your valuable time here, right?

You object to "mindless USD printing". Isn't that what bitcoin printing/mining is by design? It's unalterable, there is no human input at all, it is literally mindless. In contrast a great deal of thought goes into how much USD to print each month... You may disagree with the reasoning they use, but it's stupid to call it "mindless".

I'm not as naysaying as some, who think bitcoin is totally worthless. I think bitcoin does have a medium-term future, as a niche currency for internet pedophiles, libertarians and drug dealers... also vested interest? You're the one that has spent actual cash on monopoly money. Clearly you have a vested interest in convincing others your monopoly money is worth something. I am, on the other hand, free of such conflicts.

Quote from: cypherdoc on September 11, 2011, 06:56:04 PM

b/c they will never be able to create a superior product and the mere fact that they would want to control and profit off an alt chain goes against the very concept of a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency. you clearly have a vested interest in not understanding what you don't want to understand.

OK, even if you are right (you're not)... Whats to stop them making a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency bankcoin? They could alter the protocol so (say) instead of all 50btc or whatever going to miners for each block mined, a percentage of it would go straight to their accounts. Functionally identical to bitcoin for end users, with the exception that conventional banks are holding most of the reserves instead of nerds

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 06:52:45 PM

The "masses" either don't care or like money printing, because hey, free money

if they don't care or like money printing then you have nothing to worry about and shouldn't be wasting your valuable time here, right?

cypherdoc

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Quote from: Surawit on September 11, 2011, 06:43:27 PM

OK, let's suppose that interest in your internet funbux doesn't die off and becomes quite popular. Maybe it even starts to be a competitive alternative to conventional banking.

What's to stop the conventional banks replicating it? They could have their own blockchain set up in minutes, and they have the clout and customer base to make it instantly more popular, stable and useful than the original. With a single software update they could put their version in every ATM and payment machine in the world. This beats a bunch of nerds selling slimjims out of their garages.
Sorry, do you think the banks are just going to roll over and let a new system (in which you guys are the new major wealthholders) supercede them?

The whole bitcoin thing is blinded by greed. You desperately want to be rich and powerful, and so ignore reality to construct a vision in which that happens. Your bitcoins are not going to be thousands and thousands of dollars, sorry

b/c they will never be able to create a superior product and the mere fact that they would want to control and profit off an alt chain goes against the very concept of a decentralized, P2P, fixed amount of currency. you clearly have a vested interest in not understanding what you don't want to understand.

Topic: The Legitimization and Inevitability of Bitcoin - page 3. (Read 4985 times)