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Topic: The Lending Bubble - page 2. (Read 5146 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB
March 27, 2012, 01:31:13 PM
#33
I'm impressed.  This thread looks like 90%+ of the lending business (lenders) contributing to the OP misnomer.  I can think of a couple that haven't written something, or who don't need to.

btw - I agree with znort - having been talked through GPG signing by INAU in slightly under two hours and going on IRC, I haven't been back since.  It was a giant PITA.

I hate it, I dont have the time, I read the the directions..  And im no slouch with computers..

Its a PITA, and my time is valuable.  in other words...  Fuck that noise..


BOUNTY!

10 bitcoins to a OTC type system for bitcoin lending and trades that is easier than microwave popcorn

GPG keeps about 80% of would-be scammers out.  Generally, scammers are lazy.

Newsflash..  Most of us are...

Now get to work, there is 46 dollars on it...
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
March 27, 2012, 01:24:42 PM
#32
I'm impressed.  This thread looks like 90%+ of the lending business (lenders) contributing to the OP misnomer.  I can think of a couple that haven't written something, or who don't need to.

btw - I agree with znort - having been talked through GPG signing by INAU in slightly under two hours and going on IRC, I haven't been back since.  It was a giant PITA.

I hate it, I dont have the time, I read the the directions..  And im no slouch with computers..

Its a PITA, and my time is valuable.  in other words...  Fuck that noise..


BOUNTY!

10 bitcoins to a OTC type system for bitcoin lending and trades that is easier than microwave popcorn

GPG keeps about 80% of would-be scammers out.  Generally, scammers are lazy.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
You're fat, because you dont have any pics on FB
March 27, 2012, 01:22:44 PM
#31
I'm impressed.  This thread looks like 90%+ of the lending business (lenders) contributing to the OP misnomer.  I can think of a couple that haven't written something, or who don't need to.

btw - I agree with znort - having been talked through GPG signing by INAU in slightly under two hours and going on IRC, I haven't been back since.  It was a giant PITA.

I hate it, I dont have the time, I read the the directions..  And im no slouch with computers..

Its a PITA, and my time is valuable.  in other words...  Fuck that noise..


BOUNTY!

10 bitcoins to a OTC type system for bitcoin lending and trades that is easier than microwave popcorn
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
March 27, 2012, 09:07:27 AM
#30
 
Quote
some lenders will have learned the diversification lesson the hard way

Wink
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
March 27, 2012, 09:03:28 AM
#29
Has anyone seen my pwny?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1015
March 27, 2012, 08:51:49 AM
#28
Unless the pirate holds > 50k or something
Wink
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
March 27, 2012, 08:48:03 AM
#27
Where wasn't he talking of the price of BTC? In the place where he says "price of BTC"?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
March 27, 2012, 08:44:04 AM
#26
 
Quote
Were Pirate to default in current conditions, the lending market would be destroyed (consumer loans have a high rate of default and usually relatively poor returns), and the price of BTC may swing wildly.

I think this is a gross overstatement. MPOE holds > 3k bitcoins in bonds this month, for instance. Unless the pirate holds > 50k or something the market will not be "destroyed", just some lenders will have learned the diversification lesson the hard way.

The price of the BTC didn't swing wildly with the linode hacks, so unless the pirate holds significantly over 50k it won't touch the price. Not to mention options dampen swings to begin with.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 10:32:12 PM
#25
Another problem is lender reserves.  Banks have reserves and often a minimum level is set by a central bank.  But BTC lenders can pick how much reserve they want to have. 

If you have an increase in defaults, then lenders will need to increase their reserves and this can trigger a small crisis.  This could be triggered by a BTC economic crisis or a non-BTC one (eg. like the 2008-2009 recession).

Inflation or Deflation could also cause problems.

But those reserves are set at stupidly low levels (below 5%).  The use of liquid funds definition becomes relevant, and any spare liquid funds are normally not held by the bank, but provided to a central bank to minimise actual cash held.  Ages ago I worked at a bricks and mortar bank - total cash held was around $200k at the branch, yet some accounts were many millions.

Most of my funds are liquid (held or on call) greater than 50%.  If I had all my depositors withdraw and all my term loans default I'd be mad as hell, but can cover every coin.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 10:31:02 PM
#24
Sure it's a bubble.

Loan(big) , wash(GPUMAX), escape.

legendary
Activity: 1870
Merit: 1023
March 26, 2012, 10:25:30 PM
#23
Another problem is lender reserves.  Banks have reserves and often a minimum level is set by a central bank.  But BTC lenders can pick how much reserve they want to have. 

If you have an increase in defaults, then lenders will need to increase their reserves and this can trigger a small crisis.  This could be triggered by a BTC economic crisis or a non-BTC one (eg. like the 2008-2009 recession).

Inflation or Deflation could also cause problems.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
#22
Quote
My general concern remains that high risk loaning increases the amount of speculation in the economy without increasing its more useful services/products base.  My optimistic view is that the lender market could mature through use of an online anonymous trust system (or other means of securing loans), competition, shared information, and reduced rates.

And this nicely encapsulates the current global financial markets.

Also note, that when the banks stopped lending (due to risks, GFC and other reasons), many economies around the world screeched to a halt.  Having a banking system here is therefore important to the bitcoin economy.

Also, and while this is a specific rather than general example, if you're a 15 year old wanting $500 for a speedy GPU to mine some coins, you're not going to get bank financing.  But with a few-month payback, the rates we're lending at makes sense.
legendary
Activity: 1870
Merit: 1023
March 26, 2012, 06:09:20 PM
#21
I think this analysis is somewhat simplistic, and ignores many of the aspects that make bitcoin lending unique. First of all, in a hugely volatile market like this, short selling is common, as are arbitrage and similar deals. Borrowing to make more money from deals like this is an obvious thing to do, and if they work out, they can easily make more money than the interest rate.
Borrowers aren't smarter than other investors.  In fact I'd argue they are less smart.  Any investor with a medium level of long term success would have cheaper sources of financing from their regular assets or lines of credit. They are equally likely to lose money as make it.  The market is roughly zero sum.

Second, low interest rates in "the real world" are supported by what I've previously called (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.816149) an economy of scale on collections infrastructure, which none of the lenders here has anything close to. Furthermore, getting low-rate loans from a bank (or even a credit card) is contingent on many things that do not apply here. We (often) don't ask for proof of identity here, or collateral, and have very little legal proof against you if you do choose to default. This significantly lowers the barrier to entry for people seeking loans (even for nefarious purposes that wouldn't stand at all in mainstream finance), but the lowered barrier to entry also carries a higher counterparty risk with it for the lender, which needs to lead to a higher return for the incentives to work out.

Good points.

Finally, possibly even larger than counterparty risk is simply exchange rate risk. Most of us need USD (or local fiat) a lot more than we need bitcoins, so their exchange rate with mainstream currencies is a crucial aspect of the value of a loan. Sure, we could lend out 100 coins now and give you almost $500 worth of coins, but if you pay us back 600 coins in 6 months and the value has dropped to $0.10, we've just lost a lot of money. The opportunity cost of me lending you 100 coins for 6 months back in June 2011 is pretty huge. We went from over $30/coin to around $2 in that period. I'm not saying that we could have predicted that $30 was the peak and sold there, but it's a major factor in risk calculations, and thus contributes significantly to interest rates.

If the volatility can affect both borrower and lender why would it increase interest rates? 

If the volatility increases the interest rate, then can we hypothesize that this might indicate a general bull market mood?  For instance, this would match up with the bitcoinica indicator where there is greater demand for going long than short.

Don't assume that we're idly sitting around becoming fat cats here. Lenders make a lot of money on successful loans, but that's amortized across defaulted loans, so to apply the word "shark" to us is insulting. A few of us are working on improving the credit situation to give lenders a better picture of credit history and creditworthiness, and overall to streamline the whole bitcoin credit business. These changes don't happen overnight, though Smiley

If lenders aren't making big bucks (eg. if we have lots of competition on the side of lenders which is possible - especially as the market matures), then there is a transfer of money from people who are paying high interest rates to those who are defaulting on loans -- which is also not ideal.

My general concern remains that high risk loaning increases the amount of speculation in the economy without increasing its more useful services/products base.  My optimistic view is that the lender market could mature through use of an online anonymous trust system (or other means of securing loans), competition, shared information, and reduced rates.
 
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 02:32:54 PM
#20
I'm impressed.  This thread looks like 90%+ of the lending business (lenders) contributing to the OP misnomer.  I can think of a couple that haven't written something, or who don't need to.

btw - I agree with znort - having been talked through GPG signing by INAU in slightly under two hours and going on IRC, I haven't been back since.  It was a giant PITA.
N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
March 26, 2012, 01:44:31 PM
#19
Now someone is pointing out the bubble. there is still time before it burst. You still have time to run.

Did you just ignore everything everyone said to refute the bubble claim?
Now now, obviously it must be a bubble because people in here are so deluded that they deny it! Wink

It’s not a bubble because of

1) Currency Risk

2) Counterparty Risk

3) Not efficient market yet

4) Affected number of people and volume, even with pirateat40, is insignificant in Bitcoin world.

Interest rate is likely to decrease over the long term as these factors change, but it will not "burst" and create havoc.

Any questions?
donator
Activity: 266
Merit: 252
I'm actually a pineapple
March 26, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
#18
Now someone is pointing out the bubble. there is still time before it burst. You still have time to run.

Did you just ignore everything everyone said to refute the bubble claim?
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
March 26, 2012, 12:37:12 PM
#17
unified reputation tracking system(like heatware, ebay feedback, etc).

You mean like Bitcoin-OTC?

Bitcoin-OTC, sorry to say, is a giant PITA for the average user,
most of whom wouldn't know a shell if it bit them in the ass,
much less how to use gpg.

Plus, using Bitcoin-OTC, can you tell me how much debt - say -
ineededausername currently has outstanding in aggregate ?  Grin



Do ebay feedback ratings tell you how much debt someone has?  How about heatware? Exactly.
donator
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1001
March 26, 2012, 12:35:22 PM
#16
Now someone is pointing out the bubble. there is still time before it burst. You still have time to run.
vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
March 26, 2012, 12:32:00 PM
#15
Would prefer something that combined tracking for users outside of the limited bitcoin economy. There are individuals, like myself, who have reputations built up over years within over communities that don't help due to not being something used within the bitcoin economy. I suppose what I'm looking for is a universally agreed upon reputation system not unlike eBay's feedback ratings. Not everyone wants to sit in an IRC channel trading BTC to build reputation.

Not everyone does sit in an irc channel trading BTC to build reputation.  While the url is bitcoin-otc, the ratings aren't strictly BTC based.  In addition, ratings aren't based on trades, but on trust.  You might not have ever traded with someone but still trust them with your kid's life. You'd rate them accordingly.
hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 12:26:24 PM
#14
Would prefer something that combined tracking for users outside of the limited bitcoin economy. There are individuals, like myself, who have reputations built up over years within over communities that don't help due to not being something used within the bitcoin economy. I suppose what I'm looking for is a universally agreed upon reputation system not unlike eBay's feedback ratings. Not everyone wants to sit in an IRC channel trading BTC to build reputation.
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