The Polish government and MF has just destroyed the cryptocurrencies in Poland.

becometa.pl

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Well, things are escalating quickly.
Early this morning RMF24 (news portal made by one of the biggest radio stations in Poland) published an interview with Deputy Minister of Finance Paweł Cybulski.
Article title: Przełom w sprawie kryptowalut. Nie trzeba płacić podatku od czynności cywilnoprawnych, ale…
English version: A breakthrough in the cryptocurrencies case. You do not have to pay tax on civil law transactions, but...

Are words written down in the mentioned article proves that we've a breakthrough?
NO.

Deputy Minister of Finance said early today that

Quote from: Deputy Finance Minister Paweł Cybulski

The Canon of Convenience
In terms of PCC tax, the principle of taxation convenience is applicable. If we can settle out of tax, if it's real and possible, we should settle out. (...) PCC is being questioned at this moment because this tax does not have the principle of taxation convenience. It is difficult to tax three hundred, four hundred or one thousand transactions with one taxpayer and force him to submit PCC every time

The problem?
Who will determine how many transactions will be convenient for settlement and how many are not convenient to be settled out?
It means that if someone can pay PCC tax from cryptocurrencies, he should do it. If not, then the tax office promises a gentle approach Cheesy

What makes this words even funnier? Principle of taxation convenience made by Adam Smith is not defined in any Polish in any official document, statute, constitution, local laws - literally nowhere.

Imagine tax offices that treat tax inconvenience as the main reason for not paying the tax. For sure Grin

Paweł Cybulski later added that

Quote

I'm not saying not to settle PCC. I say to settle PCC when it is possible to settle. When it will be convenient. So if we made one transaction on cryptocurrencies, with one taxpayer. But I stress, I am talking about convenience.

Quote

For sure we will approach it more liberally than strictly.

Quote

For sure, we will not try to draw taxpayers money in a forceful way. For sure we will want to do it wisely.

Oh thank you!

Quote

Reason lies in the fact that we must understand the situation of the other side. We have to look at it humanly, not cold, stiffly, according to the current letter of the law. This letter of law at this point is completely different from reality, from the possibility of exercising this right.

Quote

We will only catch cases that indicate that the taxpayer could settle in a bright way, and he did not.

cryptojac17

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Quote from: Kingofbitcoin12345 on April 17, 2018, 12:28:24 PM

This is the other way of telling investors to just go away with cryptocurrency.. Their doing big mistakes that this will discourage the enthusiast on trading crypto,, it’s a shame that this government is taking advantage of this technology and holding our neck while doing so.. They won’t banned cryptocurrency,, but in exchange we will taxed you higher that you won’t wanted to invest again..

It’s like giving you freedom with a chain in your arms.. Fü($ that corrupt officials..

I don't know what is really our direction of patronizing bitcoin, it seems that we will uses bitcoin to elude taxes which is for me is unfair, if we do it this way it seems that we will put the government into bankruptcy, to whom are we seek asylum if somebody will harm us its the government, so It is just fair to pay taxes according to law.

jseverson

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Quote from: Kingofbitcoin12345 on April 17, 2018, 12:28:24 PM

It’s like giving you freedom with a chain in your arms.. Fü($ that corrupt officials..

Yeah, that much is pretty clear:

Quote

While Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki has called digital currencies “Ponzi schemes” in an effort to turn Poles away from such investments

The problem here is that existing traders will have no option but to pay taxes according to what they come up with. This is worse than a ban in my opinion, because it's also going to tax traders dry and blind apart from discouraging people from getting involved. It's basically robbery. Looks like the noise is working though:

Quote

The Finance Ministry said on its website on Monday that it’s working on a “more convenient” method of taxation for cryptocurrencies, while repeating that last week’s statement showed the binding interpretations of the current regulations.

So let's hope they rethink their position.

Kingofbitcoin12345

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This is the other way of telling investors to just go away with cryptocurrency.. Their doing big mistakes that this will discourage the enthusiast on trading crypto,, it’s a shame that this government is taking advantage of this technology and holding our neck while doing so.. They won’t banned cryptocurrency,, but in exchange we will taxed you higher that you won’t wanted to invest again..

It’s like giving you freedom with a chain in your arms.. Fü($ that corrupt officials..

Benni Scherz

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I heard about this stiry with huge taxes and authorities, which don't understand what kind of disaster they did. Polish community is shoked, the whole world thinks that it was weird

becometa.pl

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Everything indicates that the protest movements (happening) planned to be held on Friday 20/04/2018 will be overshadowed by the new announcement from MF.

Quote

Within a few days, we will announce a mechanism of taxation of cryptocurrencies - Deputy Finance Minister Paweł Gruza announced on Tuesday at the RDC. (Polish Radio Station)

http://biznes.interia.pl/podatki/news/za-kilka-dni-komunikat-w-sprawie-mechanizmu-opodatkowania,2564670,4211 - article in Polish.

Oilacris

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Quote from: bambazamba on April 16, 2018, 10:30:43 AM

Another shitty decision by another government . Honestly , I really don't know what is the percentage of people that are involved with crypto currencies exchange , investment and trade in Poland , but they are definitely going to get high losses if this continues . Isn't it better to put taxes rather than just simply banning it .
The biggest reason why I support imposing taxes on it is that this way both government and the people would be in an equilibrium . But "destroying" it is just going to develop rage among people .

As we know on most government if a certain thing wont passed up into their own standards then they will certainly make decisions and most of the time those would be on final state, there might be some considerations but not all the times such banning would really even more contribute on the rage of crypto people.I do feel that they would either accept it to be regulated rather than to be on total prohibition.

squatter

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: olubams on April 16, 2018, 11:01:02 AM

There is need for more explanation on what is being put out here because there is absolutely no sense in it whatsoever. I cant imagine telling someone to pay tax based on turnover and not on profit which should be in any ideal country.

Unless this is not really about tax revenues. Maybe it's about deterring cryptocurrency-related activities entirely. By making it virtually impossible to comply, they are effectively banning the activity.

The Polish central bank (in cooperation with the state FSA) has admitted to funding multiple anti-cryptocurrency campaigns on social media to deter Poles from getting involved. I don't think it's a coincidence that Poland has now instituted the most oppressive cryptocurrency tax regime in the world. Undecided

olubams

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There is need for more explanation on what is being put out here because there is absolutely no sense in it whatsoever. I cant imagine telling someone to pay tax based on turnover and not on profit which should be in any ideal country. I see a whole lot of litigations coming up because taxation should not be a way to punish people which this policy is trying to promote. Levy them on profit and not on their losses even in ideal economy, it should be on the net income they get from the exchange sites after deducting the charges they have paid.

bambazamba

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Another shitty decision by another government . Honestly , I really don't know what is the percentage of people that are involved with crypto currencies exchange , investment and trade in Poland , but they are definitely going to get high losses if this continues . Isn't it better to put taxes rather than just simply banning it .
The biggest reason why I support imposing taxes on it is that this way both government and the people would be in an equilibrium . But "destroying" it is just going to develop rage among people .

pixie85

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Quote from: TrumpD on April 15, 2018, 03:28:18 AM

I am a bit on the fence on this one as by law, we are required to pay taxes to the government for income generated. I know that there are loads of under-the-radar and or street businesses which evade tax, even some big companies find a way to evade tax payments. That being said, if taxing the crypto world is going to be expensive, then we might experience an exodus from this industry, only those who can afford to stay will. So, I think the taxes if implemented worldwide should be very affordable.

Do you think that what is required by law is the ultimate truth? The law isn't always ethical or just and when it isn't we should question it and oppose it. We shouldn't accept it if we don't like it because the laws are made by people like us and people can be wrong. In this case they were wrong. I read that they misinterpreted the laws and people aren't required to pay 1% of every transaction.

TrumpD

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I am a bit on the fence on this one as by law, we are required to pay taxes to the government for income generated. I know that there are loads of under-the-radar and or street businesses which evade tax, even some big companies find a way to evade tax payments. That being said, if taxing the crypto world is going to be expensive, then we might experience an exodus from this industry, only those who can afford to stay will. So, I think the taxes if implemented worldwide should be very affordable.

becometa.pl

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Quote from: Bennj Loese on April 13, 2018, 07:35:07 AM

Thanks for this longread, it was interesting
I think that Polish authorities are making a huge mistake and they will regret it

or they will cancel those inadequate taxation rules and simply ban crypto.
Every Polish citizen know that now, after all of this nonsense, everything is possible.

Bennj Loese

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Thanks for this longread, it was interesting
I think that Polish authorities are making a huge mistake and they will regret it

Baoo

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Well, the governments cannot control the financial transactions of cryptocurrencies, and in their opinion the only solution is taxing , but the users of crypto do not want this huge exploitation ( because the value of taxes is large and unacceptable) so it is become like FIAT. Furthermore, I think that because of these bad laws, many users will get out of the cryptocurrency field ( business ) . And I think if that happened , the Polish government will change the laws to benefit users.

In addition to that, unfortunately, many governments attack digital currencies in many ways (Bad laws, banning,...) but I do not think they will continue with those behaviours, especially if the digital currencies continue to evolve, and their popularity of users increases, then I think they will recognize all of them and will even lower the tax rate.

becometa.pl

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Quote from: squatter on April 10, 2018, 08:26:12 PM

Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

There's however one exception. Transactions below 50 PLN are not a subject of taxation. As PCC is being rounded to wholes. All above 50 PLN however are taxable.

Can you point out where this exception is specified? Is there any mention of structuring regarding the 50 PLN threshold? That amounts to ~$15. Does that mean you can trade in high volume lots of that size without triggering liability?

It was found later and is not mentioned in article - https://twitter.com/krzysztof_piech/status/983388470705033217

Quote from: jseverson on April 11, 2018, 08:48:41 AM

Wait what? You still have to pay taxes even if you didn't profit? Isn't that the point of taxation? I still find that hard to believe, but as I don't know Polish, I'll take your word for it. I'm glad I don't live in Poland.

I've always considered taxation to be fair if crypto played by the same rules as everything else (except some minor differences in filing), but specific rules for crypto is just bad news. If this were truly the case, then people were right in saying that they might as well have banned it.

Yup, that's the funniest and scariest thing of PCC tax.
Btw, there is no intention from my and others side to distribute false information.
This article was originally published on biggest Polish bitcoin website - bitcoin.pl, I've only translated it.

---

I'm going to post this image once again Grin

https://i.imgur.com/PkbC6PE.png
the tax obligation ends on April 30. This message was published on 9th of April. Comedy.

HereisTommy

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It was such a stupid idea, I have absolutely no words to say. Just disappointment and anger

darkangel11

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Don't let others control your BTC -> self custody

Quote from: squatter on April 10, 2018, 08:26:12 PM

Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

There's however one exception. Transactions below 50 PLN are not a subject of taxation. As PCC is being rounded to wholes. All above 50 PLN however are taxable.

Can you point out where this exception is specified? Is there any mention of structuring regarding the 50 PLN threshold? That amounts to ~$15. Does that mean you can trade in high volume lots of that size without triggering liability?

Yes. The requirement is that the subtracted amount has to be 1% of the transaction, but cannot go below 0.5 PLN. This means that 49 PLN generate tax of 0.49 PLN and as a result no tax can be imposed. It's not the only country that requires people to pay 1% of property sales, like cars and real estate, but nobody has ever tried to extend it to sock or currency trading. It's not only impossible to file, but also impossible to confirm since they want it all on paper. Traders could make a program that will fill the forms and print them automatically, but I'd like to see those poor office clerks struggle with thousands of copies every day.
And what about the environment? How many trees will have to be cut down every year so that the taxpayers can fill out some stupid tax forms?

Quote from: squatter on April 10, 2018, 08:26:12 PM

Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

in both cases it is necessary to submit a transaction letter in a special form to the local TAX office within 14 days from its occurance.

Depressing. This goes far beyond any personal income tax requirements I've ever seen. It seems like the government wants to deter traders outright, rather than collect taxes.

Short-sightedness will ultimately kill them. When the government imposes laws that are impossible to obey it always loses the fight.

jseverson

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Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

Unfortunately, the original article (written in Polish) was checked by some tax lawyers and according to MF statement... it's all impossible to believe but true.
There's however one exception. Transactions below 50 PLN are not a subject of taxation. As PCC is being rounded to wholes. All above 50 PLN however are taxable.
in both cases it is necessary to submit a transaction letter in a special form to the local TAX office within 14 days from its occurance.

darkangel11, people seems to be accustomed to milking.

Wait what? You still have to pay taxes even if you didn't profit? Isn't that the point of taxation? I still find that hard to believe, but as I don't know Polish, I'll take your word for it. I'm glad I don't live in Poland.

I've always considered taxation to be fair if crypto played by the same rules as everything else (except some minor differences in filing), but specific rules for crypto is just bad news. If this were truly the case, then people were right in saying that they might as well have banned it.

squatter

legendary

Activity: 1666

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STOP SNITCHIN'

Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

There's however one exception. Transactions below 50 PLN are not a subject of taxation. As PCC is being rounded to wholes. All above 50 PLN however are taxable.

Can you point out where this exception is specified? Is there any mention of structuring regarding the 50 PLN threshold? That amounts to ~$15. Does that mean you can trade in high volume lots of that size without triggering liability?

Quote from: becometa.pl on April 10, 2018, 03:31:51 PM

in both cases it is necessary to submit a transaction letter in a special form to the local TAX office within 14 days from its occurance.

Depressing. This goes far beyond any personal income tax requirements I've ever seen. It seems like the government wants to deter traders outright, rather than collect taxes.

Topic: The Polish government and MF has just destroyed the cryptocurrencies in Poland. (Read 521 times)