The prospect of mixers in a congested mempool - page 2.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on November 18, 2023, 05:00:55 AM

Although it is true that it is a challenge to mixers for those that mix small amount of coins.

Small amounts will have more and more problems as time goes by. Not only at mixing. At any kind of on-chain transfer, after all.
So mixers (will) have - actually the few that maybe didn't already - to set up a minimum amount to handle or a minimum fixed[1] fee to take, so they are not losing money off this.

[1] it can be, instead of fixed fee, to be one calculated/estimated based on "current" network fees, but that is risky because the network fees can vary a lot over rather short time and such algo can give extra clues on what the mixer is doing under the hood.

stompix

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on November 18, 2023, 05:00:55 AM

For each address that you want to mix, there is also a flat fee of 0.0003 BTC, including the fee that you referred to above.

You forget that for each extra address, the mixer has to spend another tx, unless he wants to make a mockery out of their service and dump all mixed tx in one tx with 100 outputs once a day!
The user also has another input that needs to be moved, making it even more expensive for your average Joe who just moves a bit of money!
0.0003 BTC won't pay you right now even for the next 10 blocks for a tx !

Quote from: Charles-Tim on November 18, 2023, 05:00:55 AM

Although it is true that it is a challenge for those that mix small amount of coins.

Exactly my point, so what was the last sum you mixed? Roll Eyes

Quote from: shield132 on November 18, 2023, 05:43:33 AM

Bitcoin mixers might experience loss in bitcoins today but their bitcoins have significantly increased in terms of USD value and we shouldn't forget it.

Makes no sense, one it's having your investment grow, it's a different thing than your business losing money.
Do you think that if Stake for example would be losing 1$ million a day on their casino they would keep doing it because their stash has doubled in value? Again, makes no sense running a business at a loss.

shield132

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Quote from: Odohu on November 18, 2023, 04:37:41 AM

There is no doubt that Bitcoin mixer is a great innovation. It is actually what makes Bitcoin retain some of its key attributes like privacy and anonymity. However, the recent congestion of the mempool resulting in high transaction fees and longer waiting time for transactions confirmation might have huge impact in mixing business considering that mixers usually have time range for settlement, this being unique for each mixer and often used as competitive advantage.

Do you think this could be a major challenge to the business of coin mixing?

It can really be a major challenge for bitcoin mixer owners because ridiculously high transaction fees stop people from making a bitcoin transactions. When bitcoin transaction is high enough that it can eat up to two digits percentage and then on top of that mixer is also going to take additional fees from you, then you sit and wait when fees go down or stop to care too much about your privacy.

It can also be temporary challenge for bitcoin mixer owners because if people just wait for fees to go down but deep in their bones they want to mix it, these customers will visit bitcoin mixers when fees go down and in overall, mixers will experience quick burst of users and then things will get smooth.

Quote from: stompix on November 18, 2023, 04:46:03 AM

Well, nice surprise, at least I'm not the only one thinking about this!

I've seen numerous users saying that all you have to do to avoid high fees is to stop paying for stuff, well, since mixing right now small amounts is a losing business for some, I wonder if those guys recommending this and carrying a mixing signature would be also ok with mixer not advertising during this period either as they wound;t see much business anyhow!

It's easy to say wait for the "spam" to end, I wonder how easy is to tell a business to close down till the spam end!

Bitcoin mixers might experience loss in bitcoins today but their bitcoins have significantly increased in terms of USD value and we shouldn't forget it. After all, bitcoin mixer business owners have families and they need USD for their daily activities. Btw to be honest, small transactions have never been the major profit source for bitcoin mixers, they make money from large transactions by collecting 1%-5% fees from them. It's better to have user who mixes 10 BTC in one process instead of 20 users who mix 0.002 bitcoins.

Learn Bitcoin

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Quote from: Odohu on November 18, 2023, 04:37:41 AM

Do you think this could be a major challenge to the business of coin mixing?

You pointed out a very important thing here. Mixers are having issues releasing withdrawals, and users face the same issue when depositing into a mixer. Some mixers do not support deposits after 24 hours of generating the address. The time starts to count down once the order gets created, and the service waits for the deposit.

Imagine you made a deposit to a mixer and cannot bump your transaction fees for some reason. At the same time, the mixer's deposit address won't be valid after 24 hours. This will be the worst situation for anyone.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: stompix on November 18, 2023, 04:53:47 AM

Your mixer changes from 0.7 to 4.7%.
If you make a deposit the mixer has to move the coins you sent, they also have to send you the mixed outputs, that's two tx at least, not including at least one just the bare minimum before the final output as they don't want to pay directly from, splitting that in half since they can use multiple outputs, that and you got at the current fees around 30$ in fees if the user chooses 0.7% and mixes $1000 worth of BTC your mixer loses $24 every mix.

Love how the whole thing has become so elitist right now, the fees are nothing if you move or mix $10k otr $100k worth of BTC, because yeah, that's your average Joe money for the week around here, right?

For each address that you want to mix, there is also a flat fee of 0.0003 BTC, including the fee that you referred to above. Also the fee you referred to is in percentage and some people will mix huge amount of bitcoin. If the mixing service do not see it pay again, the fee will be increased, which more mixers will also do. The mempool will also likely become less congested again. Although it is true that it is a challenge to mixers for those that mix small amount of coins.

boyptc

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Good point and nice question. It got me thinking as well. And this time, those that can afford to use mixers at this moment are the ones with huge funds that they have to mix.

They won't mind the fees if they'd do it with thousands worth of transfer that they need to mix and even more than that.

But for small transactions, it's not really recommended at all. So with probable huge amounts, they earn from those while there's not that much volume from them at all ATM.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on November 18, 2023, 04:46:37 AM

I do not think so, with the rate people are making bitcoin transactions. If you look at the amount of fee mixers are charging their customers, it is also not also small at all and many people do not think about the fee.

Your mixer changes from 0.7 to 4.7%.
If you make a deposit the mixer has to move the coins you sent, they also have to send you the mixed outputs, that's two tx at least, not including at least one just the bare minimum before the final output as they don't want to pay directly from, splitting that in half since they can use multiple outputs, that and you got at the current fees around 30$ in fees if the user chooses 0.7% and mixes $1000 worth of BTC your mixer loses $24 every mix.

Love how the whole thing has become so elitist right now, the fees are nothing if you move or mix $10k otr $100k worth of BTC, because yeah, that's your average Joe money for the week around here, right?

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Odohu on November 18, 2023, 04:37:41 AM

Do you think this could be a major challenge to the business of coin mixing?

I do not think so, with the rate people are making bitcoin transactions. If you look at the amount of fee mixers are charging their customers, it is also not small at all and many people do not think about the fee.

Also there will still be a time the mempool will be less congested again, unlike how congested it is today and some days back.

stompix

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Well, nice surprise, at least I'm not the only one thinking about this!

I've seen numerous users saying that all you have to do to avoid high fees is to stop paying for stuff, well, since mixing right now small amounts is a losing business for some, I wonder if those guys recommending this and carrying a mixing signature would be also ok with mixer not advertising during this period either as they wound;t see much business anyhow!

It's easy to say wait for the "spam" to end, I wonder how easy is to tell a business to close down till the spam end!

Quote from: Odohu on November 18, 2023, 04:37:41 AM

Do you think this could be a major challenge to the business of coin mixing?

Right now as we speak any cheap mixer with small fees would be losing money under $5k and the more expensive ones under 1k, so of course it's affecting the business, but ...big blocks are bad! Cause...reasons!

hugeblack

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Mixers can solve this problem by paying higher fees and bearing the cost on behalf of the users or passing it to them, which will make mixers fees being slightly higher due to the increase in withdrawal fees. Therefore, the effect will be limited if the fees are high for several days or weeks, but the continuity of high fees may pose a problem, especially for small mixers, which may You cannot afford the high fees or users may not be able to afford to pay 10% of the transaction as a fee to the mixer.

The most important question will be about privacy. Paying higher fees will make the mixer transactions have a distinct fingerprint, which will facilitate the task of identifying them.

Odohu

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There is no doubt that Bitcoin mixer is a great innovation. It is actually what makes Bitcoin retain some of its key attributes like privacy and anonymity. However, the recent congestion of the mempool resulting in high transaction fees and longer waiting time for transactions confirmation might have huge impact in mixing business considering that mixers usually have time range for settlement, this being unique for each mixer and often used as competitive advantage.

Do you think this could be a major challenge to the business of coin mixing?

Topic: The prospect of mixers in a congested mempool - page 2. (Read 369 times)