The real battle and the dark future of bitcoin - page 2.

Yakamoto

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Quote from: franky1 on July 23, 2017, 09:38:34 PM

many people think bitcoin has to within 2 years become the "gigabytes by midnight" concept of replacing all fiat/visa transactions of the world.
over throwing governments etc.

the reality should be that bitcoin should remain outside of government jurisdiction and be more of the 'travellers cheques' replacement. where anyone can access and use them in any country freely without all the tax government bureaucracy.

it doesnt require jumping to 7billion people storing their entire lifetimes wealth on bitcoin. but instead treated as a new separate currency working outside/alongside fiat as a optional choice. something that allows people to privately own without control and works across borders

I am in agreement with this. Keeping Bitcoin outside of what the government has jurisdiction over and making sure that, while it can be used anywhere, it keeps value for people outside of the system and somewhere where that value is safe; not exposed to the potential shortcomings or collapses of the typical fiat system. Bitcoin made its debut in 2009, after the financial crisis rocked the United States and some of the rest of the world. Having Bitcoin simply be something that can't be touched by such events would be a lot better than having Bitcoin be at risk for the same events it was designed to defend against.

franky1

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Fiat is a dam waiting to burst.

yep. but allowing people an open option to move away from the dam(fiat) to dry land(bitcoin) while the dam exists...is the easier option..
as oppose to throwing dynamite at the dam before the dry land can cope ..

let the dam crack and break all by itself over years to decades. rather than trying to break the dam tonight and then cry that bitcoin(dry land) cant cope because the infrastructure has not been built yet

getreal

newbie

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Quote from: franky1 on July 23, 2017, 09:38:34 PM

many people think bitcoin has to within 2 years become the "gigabytes by midnight" concept of replacing all fiat/visa transactions of the world.
over throwing governments etc.

the reality should be that bitcoin should remain outside of government jurisdiction and be more of the 'travellers cheques' replacement. where anyone can access and use them in any country freely without all the tax government bureaucracy.

it doesnt require jumping to 7billion people storing their entire lifetimes wealth on bitcoin. but instead treated as a new separate currency working outside/alongside fiat as a optional choice. something that allows people to privately own without control and works across borders

What do you think of the single transactions running into millions of dollars in a single payment and untraceable? Are these like traveller's cheques? Are YOU going to define and enforce such light-weight usage of bitcoins? Why should they use bitcoin for such large payments, instead of using fiat currency? Can you think of reasons behind these "great-minded" ethical bitcoiners?

getreal

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Quote from: mrcash02 on July 23, 2017, 09:22:38 PM

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Okay, you don't believe in taxes and guv and many people don't either. Alright so what do we do? Get rid of them? I called it a kid, because there is no thought of consequences. How does bitcoin help these issues? By making the money movement even more untrackable?? You are living in utopia thinking that most bitcoiners have better intentions and ethics than governments and bank. Most people are bad if they are allowed to be. Get it?

getreal

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Quote from: Tyrantt on July 23, 2017, 04:53:37 PM

Also, bitcoin wasn't created and designed SPECIALLY for deep web, they've adopted it because they've seen the opportunity to do so.

They have adopted it ONLY BECAUSE it is untrackable. There is NO other value to bitcoin. Do you see where it is going?? Basically when you buy bitcoin, you are betting on flourishing of darknet and drug trade and even helping it.

error08

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Quote from: mrcash02 on July 23, 2017, 09:22:38 PM

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Sorry, but the little kid in my opinion is you who believes on this wonderful world of regulamentations and corruption from an elite who created a modern way to "enslave" people. However I agree many people on this decentralized world think only on themselves and don't have any compassion and empathy for each other.
[/quote

Agree, bitcoin is an alternative currency, not centralized but could be regulated such as in Japan that has been legalized bitcoin payment.
There are more-plenty numbers of dark market where they like to use cash-fiat currency because it is fully anonymous, there is no digital trace at all unless they are using banks services Cheesy

. Bitcoin isn't fully anonymous and could be traced in some cases, then bitcoin can adapt in every country as long as willing to regulate it. If they don't want to, then we just use it as the way it is such as we do all this time.

Creeptocrency

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First, it is going to get really interesting once Bitcoin is at a level of adoption that one doesn't really ever need to exchange to fiat. As it is, when I send a remittance to someone in another country they almost always have to exchange it to fiat in order to use it. That exposes them to third parties and the associated fees. Once they can just use the bitcoin itself to buy food then things will change dramatically. Second, decentralized exchanges will eventually exist for exchanging to other crypto currencies. This will make it so that everyone can keep hold of their funds and never have to deposit them at a centralized third party. Once these two things occur the economic landscape will change dramatically. Power may shift from governments and those who wish to control things to the people.

franky1

legendary

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many people think bitcoin has to within 2 years become the "gigabytes by midnight" concept of replacing all fiat/visa transactions of the world.
over throwing governments etc.

the reality should be that bitcoin should remain outside of government jurisdiction and be more of the 'travellers cheques' replacement. where anyone can access and use them in any country freely without all the tax government bureaucracy.

it doesnt require jumping to 7billion people storing their entire lifetimes wealth on bitcoin. but instead treated as a new separate currency working outside/alongside fiat as a optional choice. something that allows people to privately own without control and works across borders

mrcash02

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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!

It's your right to defend the government and taxes if you believe it, the point is that here many people don't want it and don't believe on it anymore, as the past experiences weren't good (people pay tax to have low quality services back, people have difficulty to open their businesses as they need to pay lots of fees, people fund dictatorships without their own wish).

Sorry, but the little kid in my opinion is you who believes on this wonderful world of regulamentations and corruption from an elite who created a modern way to "enslave" people. However I agree many people on this decentralized world think only on themselves and don't have any compassion and empathy for each other.

getreal

newbie

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Quote from: masterbt on July 23, 2017, 08:24:13 AM

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.

Due to its design, there is no middle path or negotiation. Either bitcoin gets crushed or it will replace fiat currency. The second option is feasible only when the government doesn't need tax money and doesn't need to monitor money movements. When govt can't track money, they don't know why the payments are being made. Governance fails due to lack of tracking and lack of funds.

getreal

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Quote from: Xavofat on July 23, 2017, 02:42:14 PM

They can't "easily evade them". What will happen if Bitcoin grows is that exchanges are regulated so that any transactions converting to fiat are subject to capital gains tax. As for VAT, it wouldn't be affected very much. People pay in cash at shops, but because the shops are regulated, they still pay VAT.

I'm talking about the situation where you don't need to cashout bitcoin into fiat currency, and you can pay for everything with bitcoin. How do you define income for tax purposes? A business pays fo raw material and labour in bitcoins and sells goods and services for bitcoins. Do you think government can track the offline wallets and addresses in them?

getreal

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Quote from: Tyrantt on July 23, 2017, 04:53:37 PM

lamborghini started accepting bitcoin and pretty sure all of the rest are soon to come. So.. kind of wrong from the start.

If lamborghini accepts bitcoin payments, isn't it same as accepting cash? How does government track it for sales tax?

Tyrantt

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Need some spare btc for a new PC

"No, it is not about your silly scaling issues or other internal politics. The battle I talk about is still far way, but it is inevitable. It is when bitcoin comes out of its darknet markets, its amusing mathematics, its online life and faces the real world of salary payments, utility bills, loan payments, school and college payments, buying home, car, groceries and gadgets. That's how a common man interacts with money and payments."

if you can replace bitcoin with something else in this argument and it can still be used, it's not valid. Also, bitcoin wasn't created and designed SPECIALLY for deep web, they've adopted it because they've seen the opportunity to do so. Now, you see there actually is a school in my country where you can pay the scholarship in bitcoin, a restaurant where you can pay in bitcoin, lamborghini started accepting bitcoin and pretty sure all of the rest are soon to come. So.. kind of wrong from the start.

Kevondo

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Quote from: masterbt on July 23, 2017, 08:24:13 AM

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.

yes you are right and I do agree with you that every currency that will enlarge your money will have some risk that it will make you loss somehow but it will give you benefit and will let you earn after the time of the high price that will be the best time you will be able to earn good income now as you said that a lot of countries are accepting bitcoin and it made bitcoin more value able

megynacuna

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Quote from: masterbt on July 23, 2017, 08:24:13 AM

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.

It depends on the acceptance of the currency and I think Bitcoin has been well accepted globally but it hasn't aged well yet that's why people are skeptical and attach some amount of fear to it.

Xavofat

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Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

Quote from: getreal on July 23, 2017, 12:18:13 PM

Quote from: BitcoinHodler on July 23, 2017, 08:05:26 AM

you are making two big wrong assumptions.
the first being bitcoin is only being used in darknet, which is wrong since that usage is very small and negligible. and instead the rest of the usages you listed has been growing.

For me, darknet meass, any payment that is made without traceability. All bitcoin transaction can potentially untrackable and hence fall into darknet category. Untraceable money movement is plain illegal for two reasons: it could be used for money laundering, or it could be used for bad things.

You don't even know how Bitcoin works. It's not anonymous, it's pseudonymous, and blockchain analysis tools from governments are quite good. If used properly people can sort of reach anonymity, but it's quite difficult.

It's important for you to understand that drug transactions happen with or without Bitcoin, and that even now the vast majority of illegal transactions are done offline.

Quote from: getreal on July 23, 2017, 12:18:13 PM

Quote from: BitcoinHodler on July 23, 2017, 08:05:26 AM

the second assumption you made is that people are using bitcoin just because they don't want to pay taxes! first of all there is nothing wrong with paying taxes, if you have problems with that then you have problems with some fundamentals of society.

Society has trust problems. That is why bltcoin uses mining and blockchain. Now you are telling me to trust the society to pay their taxes, while they can easily evade them.

They can't "easily evade them". What will happen if Bitcoin grows is that exchanges are regulated so that any transactions converting to fiat are subject to capital gains tax. As for VAT, it wouldn't be affected very much. People pay in cash at shops, but because the shops are regulated, they still pay VAT.

Quote from: getreal on July 23, 2017, 12:18:13 PM

Quote from: BitcoinHodler on July 23, 2017, 08:05:26 AM

secondly there are a lot more to bitcoin than just "tax evasion"! there are lots more. things like removing third parties as @Xavofat mentioned. things such as reversing the "trust" part between merchants and customers as the white paper mentions. or the fact that you have 100% control over your money in the safest manner possible.

Or in other words, you don't know how to deal with it.

Deal with what? Sovereignty of funds is the most important thing in a cash system. Moving into a digital age, you need to have a system which doesn't rely on someone else to hold your funds for you. You can hoard gold in your house and you should be able to do the same thing with digital money.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Op you bring some good points, but if a person thinks bitcoin is going to change to accommodate him or any other entity then they are mistaken, bitcoin is not going to change to accommodate governments or to allow chargebacks that is the whole point of bitcoin and those that don’t adapt to bitcoin will have to left bitcoin, this is going to stall adoption but the devs are firm about it, and if the government tries to regulate bitcoin then another crypto will emerge that will combat whatever measure they try to impose on bitcoin.

getreal

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Quote from: tobs on July 23, 2017, 12:25:32 PM

I think bitcoin is just a new idea that have emerged or a world that one can send someone from the other side of Earth some money in a matter of a moment. Bitcoin introduced digital currency as an idea. There is no need for banks or any other third parties watching over your money. With all these things that you have pointed out I can also see that bitcoin will have problems coming into the mainstream. Everyone here imagines how in ten years there will be no fiat and only bitcoin will survive and show everyone what it's worth, but I think that instead of fiat dollar we will end up with dollarcoin or other cryptocurrency or altcoin that will be hosted by the government so that they can easily take fees and taxes from our transactions and wallets. Because they need to do this, we can't create a world without taxes and with unknown amount of money in our digital wallets.

If the fees and taxes are unavoidable, and if bitcoin becomes yet another fiat currency, why should I use bitcoin? Speed? Banks can do better soon. More importantly we are back to trusting government. Do we still need a blockchain? Essentially, bitcoin has no utility advantage, except being used for speculation.

getreal

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Quote from: Mandoy on July 23, 2017, 08:34:21 AM

The decentralization on bitcoin doesnt mean being independent from the government but it is a financial decentralization, a decentralization from the corrupt banking system. If bitcoin will be taxable, traceable by the government and must follow the rules and policies of the government then what is wrong with that. It is normal for a currency to be regulated by the state otherwise if it is not regulated it may be banned in the country and a great deal of damage will be brought upon to bitcoin. With the states interfering it means we have the support of the state that they recognize the value of bitcoin and its role on the economy and society but to bring order policies, taxation and regulation must be put in place.

So how do you imagine regulation to be a possibility, if not defeating all the fundamental principles of bitcoin? Start with tracking wallets and addresses.

tobs

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I think bitcoin is just a new idea that have emerged or a world that one can send someone from the other side of Earth some money in a matter of a moment. Bitcoin introduced digital currency as an idea. There is no need for banks or any other third parties watching over your money. With all these things that you have pointed out I can also see that bitcoin will have problems coming into the mainstream. Everyone here imagines how in ten years there will be no fiat and only bitcoin will survive and show everyone what it's worth, but I think that instead of fiat dollar we will end up with dollarcoin or other cryptocurrency or altcoin that will be hosted by the government so that they can easily take fees and taxes from our transactions and wallets. Because they need to do this, we can't create a world without taxes and with unknown amount of money in our digital wallets.

Topic: The real battle and the dark future of bitcoin - page 2. (Read 2029 times)