Topic: The real battle and the dark future of bitcoin - page 3. (Read 2095 times)

For me, darknet meass, any payment that is made without traceability. All bitcoin transaction can potentially untrackable and hence fall into darknet category. Untraceable money movement is plain illegal for two reasons: it could be used for money laundering, or it could be used for bad things.

Society has trust problems. That is why bltcoin uses mining and blockchain. Now you are telling me to trust the society to pay their taxes, while they can easily evade them.

Or in other words, you don't know how to deal with it.

Cash being untraceable is not a justification for bitcoin to be even more untraceable. World is trying to move away from cash, and bitcoin brings in even more un-traceability. Not acceptable. Did you read about Panama Papers and those AML activities? Bitcoin can increase such stuff by a thousand-fold. Does all this make governments admire the new crypto baby and hug it?

Low transaction fees alone (if it is possible at all), can't be worthy enough compensation for loosing all traceability.

Tax evasion is not the goal. But when it is possible, it becomes the goal for everyone. It is funny that bitcoin is built on lack of trust, and you folks tell me to trust people to pay their taxes? So funny.

The decentralization on bitcoin doesnt mean being independent from the government but it is a financial decentralization, a decentralization from the corrupt banking system. If bitcoin will be taxable, traceable by the government and must follow the rules and policies of the government then what is wrong with that. It is normal for a currency to be regulated by the state otherwise if it is not regulated it may be banned in the country and a great deal of damage will be brought upon to bitcoin. With the states interfering it means we have the support of the state that they recognize the value of bitcoin and its role on the economy and society but to bring order policies, taxation and regulation must be put in place.

Any currency that grows fast always have a risk. Now, few countries are started accepting it. Might be, we are seeing some sort of tracking will be pushed. It remains to be seen, how well we bitcoiners stand against it.

you are making two big wrong assumptions.
the first being bitcoin is only being used in darknet, which is wrong since that usage is very small and negligible. and instead the rest of the usages you listed has been growing.

the second assumption you made is that people are using bitcoin just because they don't want to pay taxes! first of all there is nothing wrong with paying taxes, if you have problems with that then you have problems with some fundamentals of society.
secondly there are a lot more to bitcoin than just "tax evasion"! there are lots more. things like removing third parties as @Xavofat mentioned. things such as reversing the "trust" part between merchants and customers as the white paper mentions. or the fact that you have 100% control over your money in the safest manner possible.

Physical cash is completely untraceable.  Bitcoin is not completely untraceable.  So supposedly not being traceable sure as fuck doesn't make Bitcoin unusable or mean that it's restricted to the "new kid on the block".

The point isn't anonymity.  Pseudonymity is just a helpful side effect which allows a transition to digital cash without letting governments have unlimited power over casual transactions.

The point is to remove the third parties.  The banks, the companies (Android Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal) - all of which charge you crazy fees for using their service.  It's also to remove the banks' monopoly over the money supply and their ability to conjure up intrinsically worthless fiat currency out of thin air.  This is something that can't be done with BTC.
Crypto has the advantage of people who join early having more crypto to spend later.  That's just a means of encouraging adoption, and while it's a speculative instrument as well, Bitcoin is still working just as it always has.
Rocks, fire and the Sun can't transfer billions of Big Macs worth of currency around the world with almost no transaction costs, within a few hours.

No, it is not about your silly scaling issues or other internal politics. The battle I talk about is still far way, but it is inevitable. It is when bitcoin comes out of its darknet markets, its amusing mathematics, its online life and faces the real world of salary payments, utility bills, loan payments, school and college payments, buying home, car, groceries and gadgets. That's how a common man interacts with money and payments.

There is a spoilt, rebellious kid who was never taught any manners or real world skills, but extremely pampered and praised all along in his fortified play room, and then on one fine day he was pushed out to face the real world.

What's the issue here? The issue is deep enough to lie at the philosophy of the bitcoin. It hits right where all good things for bitcoin come from.

The little kid faces two strangers on the street - the tax man and the government. The little kid says "I don't need you. I don't need to show my money or transactions to you". Then a criminal emerges from shadows, points a gun at the kid, snatches his bitcoin wallet and disappears. The kid cries and blames government for not protecting him.

Then the kid finally learns some manners the hard way, and agrees to pay taxes on his bitcoin income. And agrees to show all his transactions. And wallet details. People are now forced to use a single bitcoin address per person and that address is linked to their passport and their other national identities. Every bitcoin transaction must go through a government verification for identifying the parties involved. All good.

All lived happily ever after.

Wait, the kid then wonders - why am I using bitcoin? with all the extra difficulty. Oh, that's because it is mathematically beautiful. isn't it? Those 64 hex letters with random beauty. Ah, I can keep looking at them admiring their beauty forever.

The human society has come a long way through the jungle life, cave life, tribal settlements, civilisations, cities, nations and governments. Bitcoin, while appearing to be ultra high-tech, full with mathematics and cryptography, it is essentially a throw back to jungle life as far as the social life and governance is concerned. Bitcoin abhors governance. It ignores the need to know each other. It rejects monitoring and traceability. It want to break the government and thereby it encourages the law of jungle.

So, you say that tax man need not be concerned about your bitcoin income. Okay, so how should we tax people? How should businesses pay tax? We need tax to support government and community development. And we need government.

Lack of tracking in money movement clashes with the very existence of government. Enforcing tracking in bitcoin shakes the very foundations of bitcoin. That's the battle I was talking about. The new kid on the block has no way of fighting it. Forget winning. I won't be surprised if all the bitcoin owners could be seen as criminals, and forced to do only darknet transactions forever.

Meanwhile, the kid will have lots of fun in his mathematical cradle, playing with his crypto toys, and musical noise and excitements blaring from online forums while a crowd of crypto coin babies sing and dance around him, and pooping everywhere. All this happening in a casino, where all the people amazed by their smartphone and internet magic, keep placing bets on which baby will poop next.

Cryptography and math are pure and invincible. Worshipping them, is no different from worshipping a rock, fire or the Sun. Humans are biological creatures. All value traces down to biological comfort and well-being. Meet the real world. Get real.