The real disastor that could happen (forking Bitcoin)... - page 7.

knight22

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Quote from: becoin on February 01, 2016, 01:32:47 PM

Quote from: keepdoing on February 01, 2016, 01:23:14 PM

Blockstream/Core Supporters are choosing the Scorched Earth path. They will destroy it all if they can't have it.

Really? Core stays the core all the time.
Scorched earth path fans first had XT. Now they have 'classic'. What is next?

XT had support of the industry but not miners. Now Classic have the support of both miners and the industry. What's next? Core being left out.

becoin

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Quote from: keepdoing on February 01, 2016, 01:23:14 PM

Blockstream/Core Supporters are choosing the Scorched Earth path. They will destroy it all if they can't have it.

Really? Core stays the core all the time.
Scorched earth path fans first had XT. Now they have 'classic'. What is next?

keepdoing

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Ugly UGLY Fork War coming. Let all who are hoping for peace in this matter open their eyes. Blockstream/Core Supporters are choosing the Scorched Earth path. They will destroy it all if they can't have it.

None of this will change the 75% "preactivation" level from being triggered. But in a month or so afterwards when we approach actual "Activation" of the Fork..... everyone will need to be very patient, steady, prepared, educated.

Denker

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Quote from: LiteCoinGuy on February 01, 2016, 12:11:25 PM

i dont think there will be a hard fork too because there is no good alternative. you need more than 1-2 devs and a plan to make 2MB blocks - that is not enough.

Right.Bitcoin Classic is just having to known good developers. Without Gavin and Jeff I believe there would be no talk about Classic at all.
The main devs are all supporting core. And in my opinion is the path core is going absolute the right one.

becoin

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Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:36:24 PM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:30:50 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:28:57 PM

Why on earth exchanges will stop trading? Most (if not all) of them support Classic btw.

Because they risk a "fiat loss" (i.e. "real money").

So if they have ended up on the wrong side of a fork they will actually go bankrupt.

I doubt any exchange is going to really want to "brave this" (so they will all just shutdown until a resolution happens).

Let's see if the exchanges are really going to publicly state that they will work on a fork (I very much doubt that any of them will do so).

Bitstamp and Coinbase already did...

They've lost a lot of market share during last year. Losers... All 'Classic' fork cheerleaders are losers!

knight22

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Quote from: Lauda on February 01, 2016, 01:07:46 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:01:29 PM

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

btw 25% =/= almost 1/3. It equals 1/4.

There was a mistake in my original statement and miscalculation. 25% of the initial network is more than 30% of the forked network. You're the one who doesn't understand the current system that we're living in. Stop trying to make Bitcoin a democracy. It should be trustless, not a battle between chains.

Bitcoin is not a democracy, it’s a market driven system aligned with economic incentives. The actual economic incentive tells us to move to 2mb so that’s why businesses and miners are now pushing for it and why Classic have so much support.

blunderer

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Quote from: Lauda on February 01, 2016, 01:07:46 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:01:29 PM

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

btw 25% =/= almost 1/3. It equals 1/4.

There was a mistake in my original statement and miscalculation. 25% of the initial network is more than 30% of the forked network. You're the one who doesn't understand the current system that we're living in. Stop trying to make Bitcoin a democracy. It should be trustless, not a battle between chains.

Could you clarify what you mean by "it should be trustless"?
Is it currently trustless, or is there a possibility of malefactors? If it's currently trustless, no bad actor could subvert it because math. You seem to be suggesting it's not so?

keepdoing

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 11:20:24 AM

If we actually end up with a forked blockchain then we will have "two Bitcoins" (or more depending upon the software being used).

What will this do?

For a start I predict it will cause all exchanges to "stop trading" (as they will not want to risk fiat losses in case they have ended up on the wrong fork).

Once the exchanges have stopped then the miners can no longer sell their BTC block rewards so that means within a very short time there will be a serious problem in the mining area.

The amount of electricity that miners are paying for is so large that they will most likely shut down their hashing operations if the exchanges have closed down which will reduce the difficulty (in two weeks).

After two weeks if the problem hasn't been worked out then everyone is basically going to walk away and the Bitcoin experiment will be declared a failure.

This is what we are facing (so you've got to wonder why Gavin wants to try and push for this).

He's right! Absolutely right! Except it will be temporary, and in the end him, and all the Core/blosckstream supporter losers will be permanently removed from any future sayso in the community, and their Core Chain will be left dead and writing on the sidelines.

And the reason this must happen.... is because our beloved Bitcoin was kidnapped and is being tortured and crippled and stuffed into a side-chain box under hte control of the evil Zurg! And we must go rescue her! Grin

Lauda

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Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:01:29 PM

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

btw 25% =/= almost 1/3. It equals 1/4.

There was a mistake in my original statement and miscalculation. 25% of the initial network is more than 30% of the forked network. You're the one who doesn't understand the current system that we're living in. Stop trying to make Bitcoin a democracy. It should be trustless, not a battle between chains.

knight22

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 01:04:49 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:03:19 PM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:51:59 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

I guess you didn't closely follow about what happened with NotXT.

I can guarantee you that there will be fake BitcoinClassic nodes created so that it seems that 75% is achieved and then after one day - that 75% will disappear (and this is why all exchanges will simply stop exchanging as they know that this will happen).

Irrelevant. Miners won't mine on faked nodes and mine will be very real. That's all I care.

An idiotic statement.

If the exchanges shut down then miners will stop mining.

Exchanges won't shut down. There is no reason for it.

blunderer

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:33:44 PM

Quote from: blunderer on February 01, 2016, 12:32:35 PM

Explain "fiat loss" How would exchanges holding BTC be any different than you holding BTC?

Apparently you are already "suing me" (from another topic) so can you just keep out of this topic?

(and good luck with your legal suite)

How about you answer my question, extortionist

CIYAM

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Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:03:19 PM

Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:51:59 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

I guess you didn't closely follow about what happened with NotXT.

I can guarantee you that there will be fake BitcoinClassic nodes created so that it seems that 75% is achieved and then after one day - that 75% will disappear (and this is why all exchanges will simply stop exchanging as they know that this will happen).

Irrelevant. Miners won't mine on faked nodes and mine will be very real. That's all I care.

An idiotic statement.

If the exchanges shut down then miners will stop mining.

knight22

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:51:59 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

I guess you didn't closely follow about what happened with NotXT.

I can guarantee you that there will be fake BitcoinClassic nodes created so that it seems that 75% is achieved and then after one day - that 75% will disappear (and this is why all exchanges will simply stop exchanging as they know that this will happen).

Irrelevant. Miners won't mine on faked nodes and mine will be very real. That's all I care.

CIYAM

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 01:01:29 PM

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

Huh?

What on earth are you talking about?

If you are exchanging fiat for BTC and your blockchain ends up being deleted (due to a fork) then you just lost your fiat.

(as you should well know there are now refunds so the criminals are all waiting and hoping for this fork so that they can steal)

knight22

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Quote from: Lauda on February 01, 2016, 12:54:32 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

The other 25% which are almost 1/3 of the system are being forced to take action. If we end up being a system where the majority can push around the rest, then we are not better than fiat.

Then you don't understand how the actual fiat system works.

btw 25% =/= almost 1/3. It equals 1/4.

Lauda

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Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

~~The other 25% which are almost 1/3 of the system are being forced to take action~~. If we end up being a system where the majority can push around the rest, then we are not better than fiat.
The other 25% (of the original sum) is more than 1/3 of the forked system and are being forced to take decide.

Quote from: crazyivan on February 01, 2016, 12:46:42 PM

Oh look, another BTC doom theorist. Maybe aliens come and steal Gavin and your wallet.

STOP SPREADING FUD!

Two chains, twice the amount of coins. This is not FUD; this is a fact.

Quote from: matt4054 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:48 PM

Whoever pushes the fork has a strong incentive to see its side of the fork be recognized as the only "universal" bitcoin

Strong incentive to test out this attack vector on Bitcoin.

CIYAM

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Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:33 PM

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

I guess you didn't closely follow about what happened with NotXT.

I can guarantee you that there will be fake BitcoinClassic nodes created so that it seems that 75% is achieved and then after one day - that 75% will disappear (and this is why all exchanges will simply stop exchanging as they know that this will happen).

Amph

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another thing...miners can always sell privately i believe, their electricity bills is far less than their profit

this mean that for the time being they have accumulated a huge margin between profit and consumption and they are not forced to sell any coin to compensate

Quote from: matt4054 on February 01, 2016, 12:49:48 PM

Whoever pushes the fork has a strong incentive to see its side of the fork be recognized as the only "universal" bitcoin, in the end the other side of the fork is doomed and could only serve some anecdotic purpose in the long run at best. Most likely it will just die fast.

isn't this a way to kill adoption instead of increasing it? because some merchants will simply abandon the whole bitcoin idea if they don't like the new fork

matt4054

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Whoever pushes the fork has a strong incentive to see its side of the fork be recognized as the only "universal" bitcoin, in the end the other side of the fork is doomed and could only serve some anecdotic purpose in the long run at best. Most likely it will just die fast.

knight22

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Quote from: CIYAM on February 01, 2016, 12:46:03 PM

Quote from: knight22 on February 01, 2016, 12:44:38 PM

Of course they didn't because NO ONE actually think they will go bankrupt for switching to Classic and increase bitcoin's capacity.

If the vast majority do not agree then you end up with 2 Bitcoins.

Do you not understand this?

Yup, that's why there is a 75% threshold so your scenario won't happen. 75% is more than enough. It means on the worst case, 75% agreed to leave at most 25% behind. I doubt 25% will stick with the old chain anyway.

Topic: The real disastor that could happen (forking Bitcoin)... - page 7. (Read 4886 times)