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Topic: The Real Problem isn't XT... - page 2. (Read 3734 times)

sr. member
Activity: 400
Merit: 250
August 18, 2015, 02:24:15 PM
#62
Bitcoin has no problem, it is some of the dev's mindset having problem: They don't want to look at the big picture and try to reach over 90% consensus as much as possible (by making some compromise), instead they insist on their own view and try to politicize the change and split the community. Luckily, bitcoin is totally free to participate, every non-sheeple would use their own brain to make a choice

So where does that leave us? I'm not a bitcoin miner, just a user. All I can do is a run a node, but at the end of the day, I'm not technically knowledgeable enough to know what the right solution is, or who to support. And all I can say is that the way that XT was rolled out and politicized leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And that the uncertainty is killing me.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
August 18, 2015, 02:14:35 PM
#61
There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the block size debate.

Given that the issue is not urgent, I think the core team has taken the right approach. Bitcoin eventually needs to scale to more than 7 transactions per second but there is no compelling reason to rush out a fix.
The problem here is, that nobody knows, when it will become urgent. You can't predict that, even if some people seem to have crystal balls.
The other problem are people, who think, the system has to break, before we fix it(even thought nobody in his right mind could think, that it won't break)

It seems all the XT bashers have some sort of crystal balls that tell us "blocksize increase is not needed yet and when the next bitcoin adoption wave will be"

Not surprising tho. I've yet to read a single valuable argument from them except "Fear, Uncertainty and Dout"


Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe

Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

Do you consider Meni R an "XT basher" now?   Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 12:46:46 PM
#60
There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the block size debate.

Given that the issue is not urgent, I think the core team has taken the right approach. Bitcoin eventually needs to scale to more than 7 transactions per second but there is no compelling reason to rush out a fix.
The problem here is, that nobody knows, when it will become urgent. You can't predict that, even if some people seem to have crystal balls.
The other problem are people, who think, the system has to break, before we fix it(even thought nobody in his right mind could think, that it won't break)

It seems all the XT bashers have some sort of crystal balls that tell us "blocksize increase is not needed yet and when the next bitcoin adoption wave will be"

Not surprising tho. I've yet to read a single valuable argument from them except "Fear, Uncertainty and Dout"
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
August 18, 2015, 12:42:18 PM
#59
There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the block size debate.

Given that the issue is not urgent, I think the core team has taken the right approach. Bitcoin eventually needs to scale to more than 7 transactions per second but there is no compelling reason to rush out a fix.
The problem here is, that nobody knows, when it will become urgent. You can't predict that, even if some people seem to have crystal balls.
The other problem are people, who think, the system has to break, before we fix it(even thought nobody in his right mind could think, that it won't break)
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 12:40:59 PM
#58


The economic incentives dictates noone want to shoot their own golden goose. Bitcoin wouldnt have worked if your scenario can happen.

Game theory 101

Btw, your scenario is exactly the "worst case" that Mike said in the video chat interview " technical mess" he said. To prevent such attacks, having checkpoints and ignoring the longest chain are the only viable defense mechanism.

Sadly, his words got twisted around and misunderstood by a bunch of idiots, who are also quickly against BitcoinXT and call him dictator.



In this case, you are not shooting your own golden goose, but the competitor's, and make your eggs sell better. It is strange that even Mike and Gavin know such kind of risk is high, they still go ahead with their plan to prepare a fork which brings high uncertainty

I don't know how long they have been fighting each other, but that kind of thing is a norm among a group of decision makers in large organizations. But since bitcoin is not a centralized organization, this traditional way of working is outdated

In fact this revealed one weakness of bitcoin is its centralization of the development, so maybe we should set one dynamic blocksize rule and forbid any future change in protocol to permanently remove this political risk. Gold never changed its property for thousands of years, that's the reason it can be trusted

75% of hash power would be a good indicator whos the winner.

You're assuming the rest of 25% decide to burn all their capital because .... they're not having it their ways. Right.

Businesses only care one thing : return on investment. Miners are simply rewarded for their services.



Even if XT gained 80% of hash power, bitcoin is going to crash, because more and more people will leave, as they understand this is just another version of USD with another group of dictators

It seems you are not a miner. Industry scale miners are essentially distributed central bank of bitcoin monetary system, they usually have the best possible knowledge and also the wealthiest in this whole ecosystem (It's impossible to design an ASIC miner if you don't know how bitcoin works under the hood), they of course participate in all kinds of political movements, and this is already a potential danger, so that in the future, government only need to control 5-10 guys to control the whole bitcoin network

How exactly it is a group of dictators?

By that logic, wouldnt that make bitcoin core dev group a group of dictator?

The economic majority (the ppl that give bitcoin economic value) seeks for features they want , and instead they got told what to have by a group of ppl?

 Here we go again with your stupid perspective of industrial miners. If you didnt see this long time ago, it just showed your lack of economy understanding. And such you want a group of ppl (bitcoin core devs) to act as economic experts and control the "economy" by "policies"

legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
August 18, 2015, 12:37:30 PM
#57


The economic incentives dictates noone want to shoot their own golden goose. Bitcoin wouldnt have worked if your scenario can happen.

Game theory 101

Btw, your scenario is exactly the "worst case" that Mike said in the video chat interview " technical mess" he said. To prevent such attacks, having checkpoints and ignoring the longest chain are the only viable defense mechanism.

Sadly, his words got twisted around and misunderstood by a bunch of idiots, who are also quickly against BitcoinXT and call him dictator.



In this case, you are not shooting your own golden goose, but the competitor's, and make your eggs sell better. It is strange that even Mike and Gavin know such kind of risk is high, they still go ahead with their plan to prepare a fork which brings high uncertainty

I don't know how long they have been fighting each other, but that kind of thing is a norm among a group of decision makers in large organizations. But since bitcoin is not a centralized organization, this traditional way of working is outdated

In fact this revealed one weakness of bitcoin is its centralization of the development, so maybe we should set one dynamic blocksize rule and forbid any future change in protocol to permanently remove this political risk. Gold never changed its property for thousands of years, that's the reason it can be trusted

75% of hash power would be a good indicator whos the winner.

You're assuming the rest of 25% decide to burn all their capital because .... they're not having it their ways. Right.

Businesses only care one thing : return on investment. Miners are simply rewarded for their services.



Even if XT gained 80% of hash power, bitcoin is going to crash, because more and more people will leave, as they understand this is just another version of USD with another group of dictators

It seems you are not a miner. Industry scale miners are essentially distributed central bank of bitcoin monetary system, they usually have the best possible knowledge and also the wealthiest in this whole ecosystem (It's impossible to design an ASIC miner if you don't know how bitcoin works under the hood), they of course participate in all kinds of political movements, and this is already a potential danger, so that in the future, government only need to control 5-10 guys to control the whole bitcoin network
hero member
Activity: 1394
Merit: 505
August 18, 2015, 12:36:45 PM
#56
There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the block size debate.

Given that the issue is not urgent, I think the core team has taken the right approach. Bitcoin eventually needs to scale to more than 7 transactions per second but there is no compelling reason to rush out a fix.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 12:23:59 PM
#55


The economic incentives dictates noone want to shoot their own golden goose. Bitcoin wouldnt have worked if your scenario can happen.

Game theory 101

Btw, your scenario is exactly the "worst case" that Mike said in the video chat interview " technical mess" he said. To prevent such attacks, having checkpoints and ignoring the longest chain are the only viable defense mechanism.

Sadly, his words got twisted around and misunderstood by a bunch of idiots, who are also quickly against BitcoinXT and call him dictator.



In this case, you are not shooting your own golden goose, but the competitor's, and make your eggs sell better. It is strange that even Mike and Gavin know such kind of risk is high, they still go ahead with their plan to prepare a fork which brings high uncertainty

I don't know how long they have been fighting each other, but that kind of thing is a norm among a group of decision makers in large organizations. But since bitcoin is not a centralized organization, this traditional way of working is outdated

In fact this revealed one weakness of bitcoin is its centralization of the development, so maybe we should set one dynamic blocksize rule and forbid any future change in protocol to permanently remove this political risk. Gold never changed its property for thousands of years, that's the reason it can be trusted

75% of hash power would be a good indicator whos the winner.

You're assuming the rest of 25% decide to burn all their capital because .... they're not having it their ways. Right.

Businesses only care one thing : return on investment. Miners are simply rewarded for their services.

legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
August 18, 2015, 12:18:20 PM
#54


The economic incentives dictates noone want to shoot their own golden goose. Bitcoin wouldnt have worked if your scenario can happen.

Game theory 101

Btw, your scenario is exactly the "worst case" that Mike said in the video chat interview " technical mess" he said. To prevent such attacks, having checkpoints and ignoring the longest chain are the only viable defense mechanism.

Sadly, his words got twisted around and misunderstood by a bunch of idiots, who are also quickly against BitcoinXT and call him dictator.



In this case, you are not shooting your own golden goose, but the competitor's, and make your eggs sell better. It is strange that even Mike and Gavin know such kind of risk is high, they still go ahead with their plan to prepare a fork which brings high uncertainty

I don't know how long they have been fighting each other, but that kind of thing is a norm among a group of decision makers in large organizations. But since bitcoin is not a centralized organization, this traditional way of working is outdated

In fact this revealed one weakness of bitcoin is its centralization of the development, so maybe we should set one dynamic blocksize rule and forbid any future change in protocol to permanently remove this political risk. Gold never changed its property for thousands of years, that's the reason it can be trusted
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 12:05:18 PM
#53
what it XT ??
whether it be very influential in bitcoin ??

it's the upcoming fork or an upgrade call it like you want, that will increase the already bad drama about bitcoin vs xt, it will be influent only if the fork it will actually occur, and for this to happen they need 75% of consensus, as far as i know, otherwise it's like XT never happened

In worst case, a fork double the amount of bitcoin in existence (core coin and XT coin, both 21 million, total 42 million), bitcoin price cut by half or more. And people will understand any fork is an inflation in bitcoin ecosystem and will reduce the long term credibility of this whole concept. Anyway, it is still better than FED creating 5x more money in a couple of years

if this can double the amount of coins in existence, what stop someone else, one day from bringing another fork with another new name GX or like that, and rising again the cap of bitcoin, isn't this an attempt to increase the cap in disguise, with the excuse to increase the transaction block limti as well?

Exactly this, this can open a Pandora box. If the division is to happen and we end up with 2 Bitcoins, then I think in 10 years, we could possibly have 10 different Bitcoins.

Division is the worst possible way for this to end and I hope it doesn't end like this. Either we will all be on the core in 6 months or we will all update to XT if they reach 75%, otherwise we will start something that will burn many people. That would be yet another Bitcoin drama that would hurt us all.

For a division to work, each coin must have its own complete ecosystem, e.g. enough hash power, enough merchant support, enough exchange support, wallet service provider etc... It is kind of situation like bitcoin and litecoin, but with a slight difference: Both chain use the same algorithm. This means, the chain that have larger hash power can easily double spend on the other chain, thus make it useless. However, even the smaller chain have less than 40% of total hash power, it is still larger than half of the larger chain, so it could easily fight back and cause same damage. So eventually it is a politics about gaining majority of the miner's support, which makes chinese miners a target for lobbying






The economic incentives dictates noone want to shoot their own golden goose. Bitcoin wouldnt have worked if your scenario can happen.

Game theory 101

Btw, your scenario is exactly the "worst case" that Mike said in the video chat interview " technical mess" he said. To prevent such attacks, having checkpoints and ignoring the longest chain are the only viable defense mechanism.

Sadly, his words got twisted around and misunderstood by a bunch of idiots, who are also quickly against BitcoinXT and call him dictator.

full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 12:03:14 PM
#52

if this can double the amount of coins in existence, what stop someone else, one day from bringing another fork with another new name GX or like that, and rising again the cap of bitcoin, isn't this an attempt to increase the cap in disguise, with the excuse to increase the transaction block limti as well?

Your logic is so flawed i'm stunt.

Go blame every single crypto project then, because you know what it takes away the capital which would have been into Bitcoin.

You might want to start with your sidechain supporters.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
August 18, 2015, 11:57:21 AM
#51
what it XT ??
whether it be very influential in bitcoin ??

it's the upcoming fork or an upgrade call it like you want, that will increase the already bad drama about bitcoin vs xt, it will be influent only if the fork it will actually occur, and for this to happen they need 75% of consensus, as far as i know, otherwise it's like XT never happened

In worst case, a fork double the amount of bitcoin in existence (core coin and XT coin, both 21 million, total 42 million), bitcoin price cut by half or more. And people will understand any fork is an inflation in bitcoin ecosystem and will reduce the long term credibility of this whole concept. Anyway, it is still better than FED creating 5x more money in a couple of years

if this can double the amount of coins in existence, what stop someone else, one day from bringing another fork with another new name GX or like that, and rising again the cap of bitcoin, isn't this an attempt to increase the cap in disguise, with the excuse to increase the transaction block limti as well?

Exactly this, this can open a Pandora box. If the division is to happen and we end up with 2 Bitcoins, then I think in 10 years, we could possibly have 10 different Bitcoins.

Division is the worst possible way for this to end and I hope it doesn't end like this. Either we will all be on the core in 6 months or we will all update to XT if they reach 75%, otherwise we will start something that will burn many people. That would be yet another Bitcoin drama that would hurt us all.

For a division to work, each coin must have its own complete ecosystem, e.g. enough hash power, enough merchant support, enough exchange support, wallet service provider etc... It is kind of situation like bitcoin and litecoin, but with a slight difference: Both chain use the same algorithm. This means, the chain that have larger hash power can easily double spend on the other chain, thus make it useless. However, even the smaller chain have less than 40% of total hash power, it is still larger than half of the larger chain, so it could easily fight back and cause same damage. So eventually it is a politics about gaining majority of the miner's support, which makes chinese miners a target for lobbying

Again, you never need politics to decide the answer of 1+1, politics only becomes necessary when things has reached a very complex level. So far bitcoin is relatively simple, so it is important to keep it simple to not make it a victim of politicians



legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1011
In Satoshi I Trust
August 18, 2015, 11:36:22 AM
#50
or the core devs come back to reality and increase the blocksize to 4-5 MB (+25% increase p.a.) . i guess most people would stay with core in that case.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Move On !!!!!!
August 18, 2015, 11:20:19 AM
#49
what it XT ??
whether it be very influential in bitcoin ??

it's the upcoming fork or an upgrade call it like you want, that will increase the already bad drama about bitcoin vs xt, it will be influent only if the fork it will actually occur, and for this to happen they need 75% of consensus, as far as i know, otherwise it's like XT never happened

In worst case, a fork double the amount of bitcoin in existence (core coin and XT coin, both 21 million, total 42 million), bitcoin price cut by half or more. And people will understand any fork is an inflation in bitcoin ecosystem and will reduce the long term credibility of this whole concept. Anyway, it is still better than FED creating 5x more money in a couple of years

if this can double the amount of coins in existence, what stop someone else, one day from bringing another fork with another new name GX or like that, and rising again the cap of bitcoin, isn't this an attempt to increase the cap in disguise, with the excuse to increase the transaction block limti as well?

Exactly this, this can open a Pandora box. If the division is to happen and we end up with 2 Bitcoins, then I think in 10 years, we could possibly have 10 different Bitcoins.

Division is the worst possible way for this to end and I hope it doesn't end like this. Either we will all be on the core in 6 months or we will all update to XT if they reach 75%, otherwise we will start something that will burn many people. That would be yet another Bitcoin drama that would hurt us all.
hero member
Activity: 639
Merit: 500
August 18, 2015, 10:21:41 AM
#48
what it XT ??
whether it be very influential in bitcoin ??

it's the upcoming fork or an upgrade call it like you want, that will increase the already bad drama about bitcoin vs xt, it will be influent only if the fork it will actually occur, and for this to happen they need 75% of consensus, as far as i know, otherwise it's like XT never happened

In worst case, a fork double the amount of bitcoin in existence (core coin and XT coin, both 21 million, total 42 million), bitcoin price cut by half or more. And people will understand any fork is an inflation in bitcoin ecosystem and will reduce the long term credibility of this whole concept. Anyway, it is still better than FED creating 5x more money in a couple of years

if this can double the amount of coins in existence, what stop someone else, one day from bringing another fork with another new name GX or like that, and rising again the cap of bitcoin, isn't this an attempt to increase the cap in disguise, with the excuse to increase the transaction block limti as well?
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
August 18, 2015, 10:02:16 AM
#47
The worst-case scenario for the currency is that both Bitcoin XT and Bitcoin core continue to exist alongside each other for a long period of time, with neither fully seizing the mantle of the true heir to Nakamoto’s vision. In such a situation, the currency’s uncertain future could prove permanently damaging to its prospects.

But even if the change goes through relatively quickly, some inattentive users could find themselves out of pocket. Once the block sizes increase (which won’t happen until January 2016, and then only if 75% of the miners have switched to Bitcoin XT), the two versions of bitcoin will be incompatible. Transactions made on one version of bitcoin would not be reflected on the other, essentially rendering null any attempts to spend bitcoin on the “losing”fork after that date.
full member
Activity: 167
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 09:56:37 AM
#46
I would argue that bitcoin is designed to fork when these kinds of problems arise.  If the development team isn't doing what the community wants the miners can overthrow them by adopting new software.  Its part of the consensus driven model.  Miners have a strong incentive to agree with each other.  I would expect any major fork to be resolved with a day. If bitcoin can't overcome this problem it will never work in the long term anyway.  With that said I think we really need to have a better development system that can resolve these problems more quickly.
hero member
Activity: 502
Merit: 500
August 18, 2015, 09:56:17 AM
#45
The real problem isn't XT.  The real problem is that there is no good means to break a serious impasse. 

XT is a tiny problem - many alternatives exist to get bitcoin to scale.  But XT taught us one thing, Bitcoin is extremely fragile when the core devs can't naturally reach agreement in conversation. 

This XT thing will soon blow over and with or without a fork - Bitcoin will go on in good shape. But, someone ought to start thinking about the next thing which will cause a division.  A division which gets a real durable 50%/50% opinion going will destroy Bitcoin I think. 

XT is probably going to win this argument in about 1 hour after the hard fork.  The next round of disagreement probably won't end up the same way. 

We really need Satoshi to sign a tie-breaking message once in a while.  He is a real coward for checking out like he did.  jk

Hey Sato - how about giving the community a little guidance -  eh?  Just a little 'pip' once in a while.  How about if you sign a '1' for yes on XT or a '0' for no on XT?  That would sure help.  Now that Mike invoked your name, it really does fall on you. 

IMO it 's better to have divisions, divisions are inherent to decentralization. Even with a guidance there will be divisions.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
August 18, 2015, 09:43:09 AM
#44
I see people constantly talking about vote, this indicated that they don't understand the fundamental difference between a decentralized system and a centralized one

Only in a centralized system, you have to vote in order to force everyone to accept the same rule. In a decentralized system, if part of the participants do not agree with others, they could just fork and start to drive their own project. This is very natural and healthy, and even create some kind of competition
between forks

If you are a normal user, the fork does not affect you too much. However, if you are a serious investor or large industry miner or large exchange, your choice will involve some kind of risk, that's the reason large actors should all make some research on the topic, do their own risk judgement and do not blindly listen to core devs

In worst case, a fork double the amount of bitcoin in existence (core coin and XT coin, both 21 million, total 42 million), bitcoin price cut by half or more. And people will understand any fork is an inflation in bitcoin ecosystem and will reduce the long term credibility of this whole concept. Anyway, it is still better than FED creating 5x more money in a couple of years





full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
August 18, 2015, 06:17:23 AM
#43
...
Regardless, I really don't understand why people care what he would think anyhow.

He is the only person that when voicing his opinion in this matter, could actually be considered unbiased,
since he was the creator and in theory would make the best choice for Bitcoin/bitcoin, and not for himself.

His decision in this matter, if 100% verified to be him, would end the debate immediately, IMO.

But, as I have said many times, I believe he is no longer living as well.


One man should never have that much power.

Satoshi comes off as a brilliant man, women or group.  They will never return, their opinion is now regarded as gods opinion.. such power is bad.

Satoshi created bitcoin for the people, Satoshi can no longer be involved, Bitcoin cannot have one person/group that decides it's future.

Unfortunately, it seems that it does.

And this whole thing is just childish, and the attitude coming from the developers (both sides) is hurting Bitcoin.
If they cannot come to an agreement about something like this, what will happen when something truly serious comes up?

Well done, we have proven to all enemies of Bitcoin that Bitcoin will be destroyed from the inside.
No need for them to bother.

*sigh*

No.  Just no.

Developer infighting is not "hurting Bitcoin".  The only thing that comes even remotely close to hurting Bitcoin right now is that no one seems to understand that the core developers are not an authority and they don't have to agree because it's not their decision anyway.  I addressed this in my previous post.

Patient is running thin with these idiots. I'm doubting any of them actually understand bitcoin at all!
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