The Real Story | What is considered manipulation?

zby

legendary

Activity: 1592

Merit: 1001

Quote from: notme on February 16, 2012, 01:12:15 PM

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

facepalm

I would not dismiss the impact of the newsletter like that. The subscription is nothing significant if you trade 300K a month - but many people subscribe to it and I've seen how the market moved just after it was sent.

Anyway - my point was that it was a very contrarian move to try prop the price at that point - but yeah - with 300K maybe it was possible to revert the trend.

notme

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1002

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

facepalm

molecular

donator

Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

Maybe someone with this amount of money writes the S3052 newsletter ^^

pirateat40

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

"Yes I am a pirate, 200 years too late."

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

Quote from: pirateat40 on February 14, 2012, 07:44:39 PM

To be perfectly honest, it's funny to watch the Speculation board after I run transactions on Mt. Gox. Everyone thinks they know what happened and come up with these crazy ideas as to who is manipulating the market. I guess that's why it's here.

The truth is, it's nothing more than trading. We all try to get the best price for our USD/BTC trades. Why it's called manipulation when I trade thousands at a time vs hundreds I don't know. Maybe it's the fact that the market really isn't that big and feels like it's being "controlled" by these large transactions. Should I not trade anymore? If you played with the same volume I do, you'd see that building a "wall" to add support allows you to pick up or sell more coins at a better price. It's really that simple.

So tell me, is it REALLY manipulation?

So you did not try to prop the price - you were only buying coins? So you did not believe the signs showing that it is going down and you would be able to buy them cheaper? Or you just needed them immediately? I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

I trade 300k+ BTC a month. Buying/Selling for me is not something I need a speculator to help me with. Wink

vragnaroda

newbie

Activity: 40

Merit: 0

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

http://lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

imsaguy

vip

Activity: 574

Merit: 500

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.

Quote from: zby on February 16, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

Someone handling the amount of btc that pirate is handling doesn't need a tea leaf reader.

zby

legendary

Activity: 1592

Merit: 1001

Quote from: pirateat40 on February 14, 2012, 07:44:39 PM

To be perfectly honest, it's funny to watch the Speculation board after I run transactions on Mt. Gox. Everyone thinks they know what happened and come up with these crazy ideas as to who is manipulating the market. I guess that's why it's here.

The truth is, it's nothing more than trading. We all try to get the best price for our USD/BTC trades. Why it's called manipulation when I trade thousands at a time vs hundreds I don't know. Maybe it's the fact that the market really isn't that big and feels like it's being "controlled" by these large transactions. Should I not trade anymore? If you played with the same volume I do, you'd see that building a "wall" to add support allows you to pick up or sell more coins at a better price. It's really that simple.

So tell me, is it REALLY manipulation?

So you did not try to prop the price - you were only buying coins? So you did not believe the signs showing that it is going down and you would be able to buy them cheaper? Or you just needed them immediately? I assumed that someone with this amount of money would subscribe to the S3052 newsletter.

gewure

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

[#][#][#]

pirateat is the manipulator, i knew it.

Hunterbunter

hero member

Activity: 994

Merit: 1000

Quote from: pirateat40 on February 14, 2012, 07:44:39 PM

So tell me, is it REALLY manipulation?

Yeah I think manipulation is the wrong word to use here.

Market manipulation has more to do with what a person says on the boards or chat than it does with what they do with their coins.

Anyone who lies about their position, or encourages others to buy/sell deceitfully (e.g. It's the end of bitcoins!!! They're going to the moon!!) with the intention of misleading others into panic buying/selling for personal gain, is a manipulator.

Someone putting up a bidwall (either way) is, by action, an actor, and not a manipulator in the market. Even false walls can be bought out before they can be removed.

Someone sweeping the market left and right with massive buys or sells is no more a manipulator than anyone else with real money or coins on the market. They just have a hell of a lot more than others.

The truth is that when a person is speculating, they're only competing with other speculators for the same money/coin, so I don't know why anyone should think it was fair. This is what the free-ish market is all about...and probably why it's so regulated.

Otoh

donator

Activity: 3024

Merit: 1105

Feb15: Venus square Pluto - passionate, jealous, manipulative Wink

Raize

donator

Activity: 1419

Merit: 1015

Quote

I like to buy high and sell low

To a certain extent, it's doing exactly this that gets you the experience you need to be a successful trader. Just don't keep doing it.

Raoul Duke

legendary

Activity: 1358

Merit: 1002

Quote from: legitnick on February 15, 2012, 07:55:24 AM

I don't know about you guys but I like to buy high and sell low Grin

I like to buy high and sell high, too bad I can only do it for 2 days after the Silk road package arrives Tongue

j/k

legitnick

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

I don't know about you guys but I like to buy high and sell low Grin

WhatsHappening

newbie

Activity: 23

Merit: 0

Quote from: Cluster2k on February 15, 2012, 07:08:51 AM

Manipulator = someone who trades far more than me, for larger amounts, in large transactions, moving the price against my position and not warning me in advance.

I'd say, Manipulator = someone who owns as many assets as > 20% of total market value. He don't have to catch the knife. He's not the market consumer as we are. He creates the market. He is the market.

Of course as long as the bigger guy comes.

Cluster2k

legendary

Activity: 1692

Merit: 1018

Manipulator = someone who trades far more than me, for larger amounts, in large transactions, moving the price against my position and not warning me in advance.

molecular

donator

Activity: 2772

Merit: 1019

any trading action manipulates the price, by definition.

M4v3R

hero member

Activity: 607

Merit: 500

If I sell thousands of BTC high and buy them back low am I considered a manipulator too?

NamelessOne

legendary

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Quote from: pirateat40 on February 14, 2012, 08:13:42 PM

Quote from: Edward50 on February 14, 2012, 08:10:00 PM

When the price is falling and someone puts in 50K bitcoin bidwall to stop the price from falling that is manipulation to me.

If they wanted to buy bitcoins why the 50K bidwall right bellow the falling price, why not let it fall further and buy bitcoins cheaper?

Its all manipulation.

Price is falling and i need to sell coins... Why not? Again, its called support.

So are you fabled 'the manipulator' or one of the big players that so clearly exists? Throwing up 10k - 20k - 30k btc walls for one purpose or another like those in the past few days during the drops?

paraipan

legendary

Activity: 924

Merit: 1004