Topic: THE RISE AND RISE OF MONERO - page 7. (Read 35415 times)

The problem with any way of hiding value for a mighty state that wants to take it away is of course that stuff is valuable mainly in interaction with others.   The only value you can truly hide is knowledge, as long as you keep it for yourself.  As most value is created in economic interactions, the weak point of failure is exactly that you have to interact with others, who can betray you.  Most hackers know that "social engineering" is way way more effective and valuable than pouring over thousands of lines of code to find a hole.  

So as long as mighty states want your value, you run a risk if you have to interact with others on that value.  This is a problem that monero cannot solve of course.  If you've sold a service (say, homework help) to someone else who paid you in monero, then that person can always betray you to the state and that state can come after you to take away 2/3 of the value you provided (called "taxes"), with a punishment on top of it because you didn't give it to them right away.

Of course, all bets are off if you use centralized services.  That's a gold mine for states.  

It is only in this (admittedly risky) endeavour to try to hide economic activity from the sticky fingers of the state, that I see any reason for crypto to exist.  I fail to see any other use case that isn't covered better with fiat-like systems.  But, as I said, it remains a risky business, only open for those people who love liberty more than comfort, and willing to take huge risks of others betraying them.  And as we can see, there aren't many around.  So most probably, this project (crypto currencies) failed and is on the verge of becoming a weapon in the hands of big bad evil states instead of a tool to fight them, especially transparent crypto.

  A very good coin maybe i would buy some

why are you reporting old news, what you linked is from 2014 and 2013, we all know that bitcoin is seen as a property in the usa but not in all country this is true and you have that coinbase operate on all country, and also your article only talk about bitcoin not crypto, crytpo can't be taxed because stuff liek monero are anonymous, can't be traced no matter what the government do

Crypto isn't taxed.  The government wants you to pay taxes on it, that's different.  But the idea is that you try to hide it.  You could just as well say that during WW II, it was forbidden to be a rebel fighter by the German authorities in occupied countries.  The rebels didn't obey, right ?  
I consider paying taxes an evil deed, because you make the evil government stronger.  But I admit paying taxes too.  I'm not very proud of this deed, but I'm, indeed, afraid of their violence.  I hope I compensate by consuming more tax payer money than I pay, and by being as unproductive as I can, so that I'm a net waste for the state, hence making it weaker than if I were being productive and paying taxes on it.

But with crypto, if you do not try to hide it, and declare your crypto and pay your taxes, why on earth are you using crypto ?  Why not do everything you did with crypto, with fiat then ?

Crypto IS taxed.

http://www.coindesk.com/irs-bitcoin-tax-guidelines-mean/
http://www.coindesk.com/canada-revenue-agency-tax-rules-apply-bitcoin/

If that's so, then fiat is better.  That's my point.  Fiat is much better than crypto, because it doesn't need miners, it doesn't need peer to peer networks, there is not a block chain limit, there is no crypto hassle.  It works fast, it can be reversed without problems, the government can control it legally as it wants it to with a simple law (or phone call to the banks...).  fiat is much, much less hassle, much much more efficient, much, much less wasteful on computing and network resources.  There's no point to have crypto then.


Well, one should if one thinks, like I do, that government is evil.  But you are fully right that fighting evil can be dangerous, especially powerful evil like the government.
However, IF one decides to fight it, one should use tools that allow one to hope to fight it, and not tools with holes in it.  Weapons that don't work won't do.  IF YOU DECIDE TO FIGHT, you should use weapons that work.  And if you don't decide to fight, you don't need weapons.  But weapons that do not work, are useless inventions.
Crypto that is transparent, is like a gun that cannot shoot: useless.  But if you do not want to fight the government, you don't need guns AT ALL.  You can use their fiat.  And if you want to fight it, better take guns that can shoot.


Not really.  Of course the state will rule out guns that shoot.  You will be allowed to use guns that don't shoot.  But what's the point ?


Nothing should be taxed.  If you want a road, you pay for the road.  If you don't want one, you shouldn't have to pay for it (as a function of what you produce !).  You don't pay taxes for roads.  They give you roads to have an excuse to take taxes.  In the beginning, the state taxes.  On the sixth day, they decided to make a road, to keep you taxed.  But you're confusing goal and means.  The goal is taxing.  The means is giving you a road.


Indeed.  But apparently, this is not catching on.  In that case, crypto is useless.  This is why I think that crypto failed.  Dark markets are not gaining much in importance, most people are still following the law (or pretending so).  In that case, there's no point for crypto.


Public services are much more expensive than paid-for services.  The people that collect garbage, do it for a wage. This means that with all the collected taxes, this can be done.  But taxes serve especially to make an elite very rich, and to waste a lot of money on lobby programs (nuclear arms that are never used, a lot of silly but expensive military actions that only serve to make arms dealers rich and to keep dictators in place in foreign countries, ...).  So the taxes we pay are LARGELY more than what is to be spend on private services that replace public services, be it roads, garbage collections, or telephone networks (oops, that's private now, isn't it).  


If crypto is taxed, and you follow the law, then there's no point in having crypto.  Fiat is way way better in that case.  Like there's no point in having guns that cannot fire.

This is why I asked you several times, what makes you interested in crypto (apart from a greater-fool game).  I'm interested in it because it held the promise of being a tool to bring down evil government, but it doesn't work out.  Without that, I fail to see a use case.  I cannot think of a single reason why crypto should exist if it is not to bring down evil government by "tax asphyxiation".  I simply fail to see what it is good at, otherwise.

Dino you missed the point.. FIAT is no more or no less corrupt and evil as this crypto shit.
And it is also rapidly gaining the same level of laws & regulation anyway.

You are not really addressing the topic here or Monero directly.
All i am hearing is long winded diversions about how FIAT is bad and that is because of govt control etc.
There for the only solution is to create a crypto coin that side steps govt authority etc.
Who says you can or should ? YOU ?

So far you are failing badly at your rebel angst.
I have provided a huge list of examples of where law etc is encroaching hard on crypto.
You ran out of time to chant "Free Market' ..it's no longer a valid retort.

Further more the underlying point i think you are trying to make (to defend Monero) is broken.

FIAT is taxed and that pays for the roads you drive on etc.
Crypto coins should not be ?
You are the SAME people who have been chanting for years crypto should REPLACE FIAT.
And it should be lawless and no one should have to pay tax on their coins etc.

Hope you are ready for garbage to pile up in the streets and all public services funded to be cut off.

Your type needs to grow up.
The USA and Canada already have have had tax laws for crypto coins since 2013.
Canada got it first and i said i told you so ..the day Coindesk aired the news.
To the very same crypto rebel kids who chanted they can't do anything etc.
Wrong.
They can and they have and they will !

The guy who was running KickAssTorrents.com is in jail isn't he ?
Thanks Coinbase  

If and when the IRS or REV-CAN finds out you have been cheating them on your tax return buckle up !
They will throw your cocky idealistic crypoto-teen-rebel ass's in jail hard !
After all they couldn't touch Al Capone but when he fucked with the IRS they took him out at the knees hard.

Keep puttering around spewing crypto-rabble.
You have little time so get it in here while you can.. count your ROI'z bullshitters.
Just get ready to deal with an IRS audit with the Monero Anon block chain.
A coin designed to hide money from the Fed's because you don't feel like you should have to pay taxes.
A coin designed to perpetuate criminal activity from terrorists, pedophiles and drug dealers.
Only problem is the arrests are already mounting guys..

So get ready to feed the police your little Bitcointalk i don't have to pay taxes speech ok shitcoin aficionado's.
I am sure they will simply take the cuff's off and say "oh, well then.. why didn't you show us your Bitcointalk post sooner.. you are free to go"  

PS:
Monero is rising ? from where to where ?
Where can it go ? What is the long term agenda here ?

Of course, if you can take advantage of other people through evil authorities, that's what you should do.  I do that too.  Big bad evil authorities are exactly that: a tool to help you rip off others.  It is a good tool if you can get more out of it than you are ripped off by it.  This is why the best thing to do, when there are big bad evil authorities, to live off public money, producing nothing, or almost nothing, and be partisan of more taxes for the productive.  Which is exactly what big bad evil authorities do.  

The problem with that is that you should be crazy to get productive, because you will get ripped off.  The only interesting way there is when there are big bad evil authorities around, is to be fed by taxpayer's money, and try to produce as little as possible.  That's what I do.  But I would prefer to be productive.  Only, if ever I would be, big bad evil authorities will come and take, what, 70% of it.  So no.  I am unproductive, and get paid a lot of taxpayer's money.

I would prefer to live an honest life, where I can spend what I earn by doing stuff for other people who pay me freely for it.  But this is impossible when there are big bad evil authorities around.  They want 70% of my production.   If I produce A value for others, I can only obtain A/3 from others.  The 2/3 A are taken away by big bad evil authorities.  If I would like to swap 10 apples from my apple tree against 10 oranges from you, I can't.  Big bad authorities will take away 7 of my apples, and only let me have 3 oranges for my 10 apples.

Yes, I do get something in return: bad schooling I cannot chose, a lot of unfriendly foreigners without a job but with a lot of uneducated kids and a lot of money from the state, and a few other public services.

So living an honest life is not possible when there are big bad evil authorities around, and you have to choose between being their slave, or joining them.


Fiat is not corrupt.  Fiat is only a tool in big bad evil authorities' hands to pump value from the productive into the hands of the unproductive.  Like all the rest of big bad evil authorities, as it is the reason why they exist in the first place.


But most fiat money is already digital.  And doesn't need miners, PoW, PoS, or any other crypto constructions, needed to be "trustless".


Poloniex is not what crypto is for.  Crypto was to be a currency: an intermediate good, that you obtain when you provide goods and services, and that you can trade against other goods and services, in a peer-to-peer way.  It needed to be anonymous, because big bad evil authorities cannot have it that you exchange goods and services with someone else, without taking 70% of it or so.  Crypto didn't need fiat exchanges.  But it failed at being an intermediate peer-to-peer good.  It became a financial toy in the hands of mostly, establishment.


This is not only the problem, this makes the endeavour useless.  I'm not saying that crypto will die.  On the contrary, it will live.  It will be taken over by big bad evil authorities, even shoved down our throats, and Satoshi has given them the tool they couldn't even dream of having: total transparency of all financial interactions of all citizens the big bad evil authorities are using as their productive slaves.
Next time you give you neighbour's kid some money because he comes and mows your lawn, big bad evil authorities will see it, and want 70% off it.


I told you already a million times, that I don't speculate, I don't trade and I almost don't hold any crypto.  Most of what I have is to use or to experiment.  I think that ripping off others in this zero sum game is shameful even if lucrative.
I am fond of crypto if it is to escape big bad evil authorities, that's all.  It's turning into a nightmare, where big bad evil authorities are going to use this invention to rip us off even more.


But if regulation is coming, then you should avoid crypto totally, or try to use it underground.  There' s strictly no point in using a regulated crypto.  Or you believe in it, and you go outside of the law, or you think you should comply, and you use fiat.  But using regulated crypto is crazy.

..financial toy to rip off people ?

uhmmm ? LOL

Dino there is no reason we can't work WITH the big bad evil authorities.
The notion Fiat is corrupt and this retarded bullshit is not is silly.

And i think the idea of a digital currency is not that crazy either.

You are good at spewing off a massive diversion though.
Monero ? Heard of it ? Care to comment on the topic title ?

I see what is.. the reality if you look around.
Poloniex taking picture ID so traders can potentially get ratted out to the Fed's.
Like this forum or any other service within arms reach of the US govt.
theymos and his opinion do not trump law.
If they show up at his doors and say either you play ball or you are going to Guantanamo Bay what do think he will say about handing over a users info here ?
Coinbase ? Cryptsy ?
They all do it if they are complaint.. even Polo's old XMR based market exchange.
Which was rather odd to say the least they added dedicated markets for Monero years ago.

blah blah blah.. see ya in jail idiots.
Chant "Free Market" to the judge or when you are in the FBI hot seat.
Did Gavin say no when they requested he show up and answer questions ?
Nope.. he was more than willing to do what he was told.
Ever heard of him ? He used to be a guy on the foundation who got a yearly 1 million dollar salary.

So what is the big rise of Monero about ?
Where to now guys ? What is your big plans ?

EDIT:

I would prefer we had no law on the web at all but it's a dream that is not realistic.
We can't ACT like that is how it is NOW !

I would rather have all laws thrown out and have the web as the wild west.
But once i see the need to interact with FIAT as a necessity i see big problems.
There is a link to FIAT and that is the source of problems.
..that *IS* reality guys.

You don't get to pretend your not connected or lie and say we don't need connections.

People you have a problem brewing here i have warned you all about loudly since 2013.
You are not listening and playing games for ROI's for as long as you can get away with it.
Rather than dealing with things like you SHOULD be.

I told you all reg's are coming and you all said oh they can't do anything laughing.
Wrong.. i was right look around !

I don't contradict this.  You're missing the logic.  I said: "crypto ONLY MAKES SENSE if it is anarchistic and hence necessarily anonymous, in the frame of dark markets and if a serious part of the world economy becomes a dark market".  

You are saying that it is an utopia that a serious part of the world economy becomes a dark market.  This is very well possible, and that doesn't contradict my statement.  It only indicates that crypto, all of crypto, simply doesn't make sense, that's all.

My statement is akin to "building boats only makes sense if the idea is that we will transport people and goods over the oceans and seas".  Your statement is like "it is an utopia to think that we will transport a lot of goods and people over the oceans".  Both statements are not in contradiction.  They simply imply that making boats doesn't make much sense, that's all.

Now, the question is: should we make boats with holes, or boats that float ?  My point is that, given that boats only make sense when they transport people and goods over the oceans, they should float.  If your argument now is that they can just as well contain holes, because they will not go on the ocean, then my point is that that is silly, because the *only sensible use case is when they float*.  If your argument is that this use case is utopia, and will not happen, then we can just as well stop right away, but in any case a boat with holes in it doesn't make sense.  Maybe a boat that floats doesn't make sense either, but at least, it is the only one that can POTENTIALLY make sense.  The one with holes, never.

I hope you see the analogy:
boats are crypto currencies,
transporting goods and services is a good part of the world's economy goes dark,
crypto with holes is crypto that complies to the law,
crypto that floats is crypto that is suited for dark markets (anonymous etc...).


But then crypto is simply a useless concept, that's all.  Use fiat.


Simply because if crypto complies to "police and govs", then it is fiat, and if fiat has problems, that is simply because "police and govs" want it to have problems.  If crypto complies, it should then have exactly the same problems as fiat, because fiat's problems are *organized* and are the *purpose* of "govs and police".  


Satoshi didn't know everything, right.  He's not the author of the Bible or something.  He did something great, but didn't realise exactly what he was doing.  We are allowed to think independently of Satoshi.

You should read two books:
"Debt: the first 5000 years" by David Graeber and
"what has the government done to our money"
https://mises.org/library/what-has-government-done-our-money


On the contrary, I think crypto is exactly over because of this.  It didn't work out.  It is now institutionalized, part of the government and establishment games, and it will simply be integrated as yet another financial toy to rip off people.

Bitcoin is now a Chinese government fiat (or will soon be).  It wouldn't surprise me that the Chinese gov will possess more than 50% of all coins 10 years from now.
If "crypto works out", bitcoin will be China's dollar with which it will dominate the world economy, like the dollar was the US fiat, with which it dominated the world economy for almost a century.  Bitcoin is worse because no freedom is allowed, everything is traceable.

Crypto is just a wasteful way of doing fiat, containing a lot of hassle that isn't necessary when it complies to govs.  There's no need in cryptographic proofs if in the end, the gov decides, no ?

Jeez i can't count how many times i have been over this with you.

Your preaching to the choir.. i have been a P2P supporter since around 2000.
And a pirate going back to the 80's playing "stolen" Choplifter etc on jumbo floppies.

You are trapped in your own personal idealism that the world does not share.
I am all for bending rules or being a rebel but you are being unrealistic and your age is showing.
I have heard far faaaar too much silly crypto rabble over the years chanting all kinds of silly ass stupid rhetoric.
I heard it all and LOTS !

- They can't stop us.
- We don't need FIAT or connections to it.
- They can't regulate our coins or put laws on them.

WRONG ..they already did, wake up !

I will admit best i can tell ANON coins have offered the only crypto currency innovation yet.
All the other shit is gimmick tokens for profit bullshit that has no real need or future.
But the problem is if your aim and big goal for a bright future is being added to Dark Markets
..then your fucked !
Trust me that won't end well.

And who the hell said crypto currencies were fully intended to "Stick it the man" ?
I think that is an exaggeration and silly childish little angle you are pushing for your own agendas.
You need a battle to fight so you created one.. it's what kids do best on the internet.
Who the hell says crypto has to be about fighting the police and govt's around the world ?
So what if FIAT has problems ? What the fuck does that have to do with it ?

Show me the quotes from Satoshi and other first day guys where they outlined their manifesto for world domination to fight the govt and topple fiat and abolish all law and create a greedy corrupt money grubbing scam scene for profits.

Because that is where your cute little idealism is born from.. profits.
Don't bullshit me with chanting Free Market like you are all philosophers and are being altruistic with your speeches.
You are shit talkers making pitiful excuses so you can keep making money off of THOUSANDS OF shitcoins

..in a lawless scam ridden scene.

Monero cheerleaders are often kids.. that know fuck all about life.
Dreamers..
Grow up kids.
Get realistic and look around.. your anti-law agenda already failed.

So what now ?

THE RISE AND RISE OF MONERO ? To what ? ...from where ?
(if you all mean price wise then this bullshit should be moved to Speculation)

Crypto currencies only make sense in the frame of dark markets.  Or else they become a very wasteful, clumsy form of fiat.
The idea is that most of the world economy becomes a dark market.  Otherwise, all this doesn't make sense.

AFAIK, DCR isn't actually being used for any real life apps/platforms.  It's hard to say that something is undervalued when it has no practical use yet.

The price is too high at this moment i believe.

Exchanges ? Which ones ? govt compliant ones ?
I love how you all skipped over that key point.

On the hoody they printed secure, untraceable etc.
Uhmmm compliant exchanges follow AML laws so.. uhh ?

You all catching on yet ?

And what exactly are you all clinging to with your future with Monero ?
What exactly is it that is going to get it from where it is now to a world wide USED currency ?
Dark Market adoption ?
Are you all REALLY actually looking ahead or just short term at your wallets ?

Maybe a safer bet would be to hitch a ride on the HaleBop Comet next time it passes ?
I hear they are passing out robes and Nike shoes and stirring the Kool-Aid as we speak..
"Heavens Gate" Anon Coin ..to the moon !

I don't even think we want the bloat from speculators playing arbitrage. Let LTC have it's niche, it works just fine for that, doge does as well.

We need monero on more exchanges that is true but slowly it seems more exchanges are adding it and I don't see why it will not be on more exchanges by the end of the year.

Monero price looks promising, Instead of buying, is there any faucets for monero??

Sure, interest in Monero has died off, if you've got the attention span of a gnat. It's been about two weeks since it was at $18...omg it's the end. LOL.

And maidsafe? Here you're calling it a project that is going up and only a couple of hours ago you called it a vaporware scam. Did you skip your meds today?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.17511707

Looks like it could be the end of FOMO for Monero.  Monero going down everyday while projects like Maidsafe are going up.