Topic: The State of Cryptocurrency Mining by David Vorick (Sia) - page 2. (Read 25662 times)

https://medium.com/@salva.enkidu_89587/how-bitmain-indeed-mines-coins-in-secret-2ea179e7ab75

Another Sia fan writing a lengthy piece of loathing about Bitmain's tactics. I think at this point even if Bitmain were benevolent, they're such a lumbering beast that any smaller coin that attracts its attentions immediately starts foaming at the mouth and keels over.

Indeed.  It seems like people forget there were plenty of other manufacturers.  I'm certainly no expert on mining, but even I know that KnC, BFL, GAW, HashFast, etc all had their various issues (to put it mildly in some cases) over the years.  Some of them were involved in some shady behaviour, others simply weren't profitable operations.  They were either marred by criminal proceedings, went bankrupt, or both.  Bitmain effectively won by default, simply because they didn't have much in the way of serious opposition.  I don't know why some people think it's a damn conspiracy.  It's just basic market forces at work.



Yeah, sorry, but no.  That's precisely what caused many of them to fail.  They played dirty, they suffered the consequences.  Consequences like their customers gave them negative publicity because the goods were delivered late, or worse still, never arrived at all.  Consequences like the owners got arrested.  Things like that.  Cause and effect.  This isn't revelatory stuff here.  Sad to say, but Bitcoin has simply had a pretty sordid history when it comes to hardware manufacturers.  Any one of those failed companies mentioned above could have done things differently and maybe we wouldn't have that one dominant company with a monopoly like we do.

It would be SO cool. Especially if it were based on a "true story".

I actually wondered many times myself when the next Hollywood blockbuster would move away from Bitcoin and crypto as just simple tools used for crime, and focus instead on some of these unlikely cataclysmic events just as you mention. Cyber terrorists/hacktivists secretly taking over all Bitmain equipment and one day taking control over all of it to destroy it with a virus. Maybe several large EMP attacks all over the industrial rigs. But yeah, I'm surprised someone else thought of Greenpeace-like radicals doing something like this. Waiting to be turned into a book/script/film.

Yes.....and if with the snap of a finger....all firearms could be removed from existence then no one else will be shot. Not gonna happen. I fantasize about Crypto terrorist groups forming and destroying the electric grids and networks of these fucking scum. Like the "Greenpeace" of Crypto. Alas, it is only a dream.......maybe.

BR

The people have ALWAYS had the power, who do you think back in 2012 was funding BFL and Avalon with millions in interest free loans?  It wasn't investment bankers!!!

Those earlier bitcoiners may have believed in the idea but they funded those companies because they saw an opportunity to work within the system to gain a MAJOR advantage over the other users.

Imagine if people said hey we won't give interest free loans to strangers on some wild west cowboy forum.  If people had simply never supported this kind of business model it wouldn't work LOL it really is not that complicated! But that isn't realistic, because people!

Bitcoin may yet become a "victim of it's own success" but everyone is playing within the coded rules so one might even argue it's working as intended.

I wonder how many bitcoiners know anything about mining other than it "secures the network".  This site is FULL of users new and old that simply now NOTHING about mining.  Extrapolate that to the general public of bitcoin users and it's doesn't seem hard to imagine mining is somewhat irrelevant to them.  Short sighted approach I think but also very plausible IMO.

Honestly I wish this wasn’t driven mostly by get rich traders.  They give two shits about how the system should be working. Honestly price should continue to head down as the whole idea of bitcoins worth is at jeopardy(decentralization).  It should be nearing 0$ per bitcoin.  Bitmain owns entirely too much of this space.  The only way to remedy this situation is for all devs to stand together for the betterment of mankind.  Not their own personal wealth.  EVERYONE!  If we just all walk away and ignore them what power do they have?  ZERO!    If we all succeed we all do better.  When the money lies in only the hands of a few well it don’t take a long look at history to see how that plays out.  Def a turning point for me whether this whole thing is a bust or will make it. 

BR

People with dollar signs for brains have been giving interest free loans to their competition since late 2012.  Couple that with a system DESIGNED as a near zero sum game and then ask yourself "what the fuck could possibly go wrong with this scenario".

It's what humans do though, we push the boundaries, we exploit the smallest advantages, we work within systems to maximize our value.  When a system is designed to reward those with the biggest advantage (ie lowest capital cost of equipment and overhead) then we should expect those with the greatest advantage to exploit it at every turn, because we are human.

I'm not saying that there isn't some people who wouldn't exploit a system if they could.  Lots of reasons exist to not exploit something you care about, but it is naive at best to think a system such as this won't be exploited by the vast majority of people that CAN.  It's also interesting to see how many people who don't have the proper advantages try to "exploit" the system.

The current trend of "centralizing" miners in the hands of the manufacture (or large enterprise level farms) should be expected to continue unabated as their is currently no reason to NOT continue as is!

Note exploit in context could also be read as "work within a system designed to favour those with certain advantages".

Edit:  When someone figures out how Bitmain (or any company) can make MORE profits selling only to home miners and NOT by mining themselves AND selling to ANYONE with a couple satoshi's then and only then perhaps can we start to discuss true decentralization of POW mining.

Because... from what I glean from the article, every time you order an Asic from a big player, even if it's the one with the quickest delivery time to order like Bitmain, you give them enough capital to make much more than 10 times what you ordered. By the time you receive your order, you get 1 ASIC, weeks or months closer to being obsolete, while the big player has more than 10 times more resources to add to their own hashrate or develop more efficient tech.

So the more you support by buying from them, the bigger their monopoly of hashrate. Yes, you're spreading out the hashrate, but it is the minority share that's getting more distributed. The majority, the big players, gets bigger.

but why?
i dont see why private miners cant buy a few asics, instead uf gpu?
if enough miners place some asics next to their gpu miners, it would be just as de-centralised...
with current asic prices this shouldnt be an issue as well...

Me too ck.  When ASIC first hit I told people this is now an arms race that will lead to ultimate centralization in to a handful of large mining operations that will gather a majority of the coins and fees.   I remember reading your posts on this too and you were right.

I hope that for the sake of GPU miners, the present car/bike ratio replicates itself in the ASIC/GPU world. I believe I saw a headline recently that bikes are now equal to cars worldwide in numbers. There's always hope.

he wrote that article as sour grapes he bet the farm to build an asic rather then securing his al-gore-rythm bitmain handed him his ass and he now spouts off that asics are god and other gear is shit.

I came up with a good analogy.  Asics vs gpus    is  kind of like cars vs bicycles.
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asics + cars  costly loud burn a lot of power.

gpus+bikes cheap quieter burn less  millions of people can afford them

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asics + cars  go faster and carry more people and cargo, mine faster

gpus + bike go slow carry less people and cargo ,mine slower
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asics + cars need decent roads and do not maneuver great only do 1 coin or algorithm

gpus + bikes do not really need roads and can be moved around obstacles easily do any coin


you could argue a fpga is like a vespa


my point is the writer of the blog is saying no more bikes they are worthless  go get a car.

And while he may have paved the road with his coin for asics since he wanted his own asic others will alter the roads to stop cars/asics

Should be fun to watch.

and to the Sia developer oh well as seth would say your'e burnt



BTW all of bitumen's moves are based on the simple fact that the .11 watt s-9 edge has been lost.

June 2016 s-9 .11 watts
next best s-7 .25 watts

avalon's gear was .29 in June of 2016

for a 256 miner to have the edge the s-9 once had it would need to do 30 th at 1200 watts and cost 700 usd to build you could sell it for 3k and once again be a true king of btc.

no one can do that with btc.

bitmain want to get far ahead in any algorithm to make tons of money and sia developer were burnt fucking with asics and not developing in the coin.

In the article, he stated substantiated facts. You posted a bunch of speculation, guess and conjecture glazed over with personal opinion and unwarranted optimism. In short....he's right and you're wrong.

The only reason that ASICs are winning is that ASIC manufactures are bribing developers to do nothing about ASICs taking over an algorithm. It would be very easy for a coin like Zcash to tweak Equihash and prevent all of the Z9s from mining. (Monero showed how simple and effective it is.) Contrary to Vorick's claims, ASICs cannot easily get around such a change -- if they were able to, then they wouldn't be much more efficient than current GPUs.

The author of the blog sells ASICs, so it's in his best interest to make GPU miners think there is no hope. He's also a very sleazy person. He accepted crowd funding for five batches of Siacoin ASICs almost a year ago and has yet to deliver a single product. So given his behavior, I can't trust anything Vorick says. In fact, I'm inclined to believe he's a compulsive liar who will say anything to get money.

I think you will find necessity will motivate miner/entrepreneurs to find innovative profitable ways to use the waste heat.  My local Micro brewery is warming up to my miners. My winter greenhouse is profitable.

This is absolutely correct. The equation can't possibly work in an appliance's favour in any way. The only thing that remotely has a chance is a space heater that mines to generate its heat. To that end, that's what I use my T1s for now that it's getting colder here, but they need to be dedicated to doing so in a fashion that is meaningful in normal households, not somewhere with tons of power and that can tolerate noise. There just is NO market for that kind of hardware though; it's all aimed at super giant fucking massive farms, and selling 10s of thousands of miners at a time, not a handful to the regular public. There's no money in making hardware for everyone else, so it's just not going to happen.

I think it would likely look more like 1000 and earn $0.10 a year and use an extra $50 a year in electricity

or 800 and earn 0

so after 24 months you have a $1099.80 TV.

An appliance miner is never going to compete with high density mining farms, we already have CPU's but no one use's them to mine to "reduce" its capital cost's.

Most of us small guys been using the inefficient rigs for heat in winter.  This is bound to be the only way to keep decentralized make it cost more to mine than what it earns.  That would shut down all major farms in a big hurry.  Using Phil’s method imagine if they put one in tv and never tell us.  I’m sure some will watch and see.  They will then get rich off our power.  Kinda like the holders would be doing.  ESP when it costs more to mine then it returns.  Will be an interesting scenario to see play out.  Best Buy coins not dump anymore into rigs.  That’s my best educated look at the situation. 

BR

I would love to have a Samsung tv that mines a bit while I watch my favorite movie