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Topic: The True Explanation of Ripple for Bitcoiners - page 3. (Read 17535 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Default risk can only be perceived externally, as it is an event that is most likely only happening once (e.g. pirateat40 paid consistently every last Bitcent until it all went POOF and then he consistently paid 0 Bitcents any more). Also Web of Trust ratings won't help much (again: pirateat40 had a flawless and highly rated WOT account). There might be some service option similar to rating agencies that might release their opinions in a format that oyu can plug it into your Ripple client automatically, but still knowing the real risk is not something that can be really calculated.
Back before banks discovered they could just dump their losses on the taxpayers and depositors, they developed a series of techniques for estimating default risk that work reasonably well, and people who want to use Ripple successfully would need to use similar techniques in order to estimate the amount of trust they should assign.

That means borrowers should disclose their balance sheets to creditors, develop rational methods for assigning value to their assets (reserves), and pay attention to debt to asset ratios as well as debt service to income ratios.

None of those things happen within Ripple; they have to be done manually, out of band.

You could, of course, just assign trust based on other factors without taking any of the above into account but that would be exactly like throwing money at pirateat40.
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
Can Ripple automatically calculate the optimal values of these exchange rates to compensate for default risk, or will setting those require some out of band information?

Default risk can only be perceived externally, as it is an event that is most likely only happening once (e.g. pirateat40 paid consistently every last Bitcent until it all went POOF and then he consistently paid 0 Bitcents any more). Also Web of Trust ratings won't help much (again: pirateat40 had a flawless and highly rated WOT account). There might be some service option similar to rating agencies that might release their opinions in a format that oyu can plug it into your Ripple client automatically, but still knowing the real risk is not something that can be really calculated.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
These are real pitfalls that can not be solved from within the Ripple system (which is really just a ledger), but potentially could be addressed by out of band agreements between the participants, assuming those participants fully understand the issues involved and are willing to go to the trouble.

Again, I'll repeat myself.
You can set up a fee so when IOU-BTC-Bitstamp are converted to IOU-BTC-SOMETHING-ELSE through your account, they are not 1:1 anymore. This is called "transfer rate". So there is no problem. You can set this fee to 90%. That mean that you need 1.9 of IOU-BTC-SOMETHING-ELSE to convert it to 1.0 of IOU-BTC-Bitstamp.
Can Ripple automatically calculate the optimal values of these exchange rates to compensate for default risk, or will setting those require some out of band information?
sr. member
Activity: 309
Merit: 250
There seems to be an extremely serious technical flaw which goes to the heart of an IOU trading system:

All IOUs for the same real-world instrument (BTC, USD, Gold, Oranges) are regarded as fully fungible 1:1 even though they originate from different people with different circumstances. This means that:

a) there is no accounting for expiry or settlement. IOUs are issued with no agreed redemption date. This means payers are effectively making open-ended gifts.

b) there is no weighting for the creditworthiness of the issuer e.g. an IOU for 100 USD from person X equals an IOU for 100 USD from person Y, even though person X has a million-dollar house and person Y lives in a culvert.
These are real pitfalls that can not be solved from within the Ripple system (which is really just a ledger), but potentially could be addressed by out of band agreements between the participants, assuming those participants fully understand the issues involved and are willing to go to the trouble.

Again, I'll repeat myself.
You can set up a fee so when IOU-BTC-Bitstamp are converted to IOU-BTC-SOMETHING-ELSE through your account, they are not 1:1 anymore. This is called "transfer rate". So there is no problem. You can set this fee to 90%. That mean that you need 1.9 of IOU-BTC-SOMETHING-ELSE to convert it to 1.0 of IOU-BTC-Bitstamp.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
There seems to be an extremely serious technical flaw which goes to the heart of an IOU trading system:

All IOUs for the same real-world instrument (BTC, USD, Gold, Oranges) are regarded as fully fungible 1:1 even though they originate from different people with different circumstances. This means that:

a) there is no accounting for expiry or settlement. IOUs are issued with no agreed redemption date. This means payers are effectively making open-ended gifts.

b) there is no weighting for the creditworthiness of the issuer e.g. an IOU for 100 USD from person X equals an IOU for 100 USD from person Y, even though person X has a million-dollar house and person Y lives in a culvert.
These are real pitfalls that can not be solved from within the Ripple system (which is really just a ledger), but potentially could be addressed by out of band agreements between the participants, assuming those participants fully understand the issues involved and are willing to go to the trouble.

I have my reservations about tying any kind of IOU system to BTC. Further, the whole Ripple project seems really complex and a bit tricky - even for tech guys to get. Sounds almost like a potential Trojan Horse to BTC. I say we approach this carefully, very carefully. Get that thing open sourced and have the experts look into it. The longer it is closed, the more we have to worry.

I'm open to studying this Ripple thing more though. Bitcoin clearly needs a decentralized form of exchange at some time. I'm just not feeling it is Ripple at this point.
It's probably not worth the effort needed to use Ripple safely when you're talking about transfers of BTC, however when you talk about dollars and other legacy currencies the cost/benefit ratio becomes significantly more favorable.

One thing that would assist Bitcoin adoption would be if users could pool their dollar (euro, etc) liquidity while running Localbitcoins exchanges to help new users move into and out of BTC. The easier it becomes to move between BTC and legacy currencies, the more BTC people will be willing to hold. Ripple could help achieve that if it was used for "community credit" instead of relying on gateways.

Basically the best parts of Ripple are exactly the features that OpenCoin isn't focusing on.
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1000
Antifragile
There seems to be an extremely serious technical flaw which goes to the heart of an IOU trading system:

All IOUs for the same real-world instrument (BTC, USD, Gold, Oranges) are regarded as fully fungible 1:1 even though they originate from different people with different circumstances. This means that:

a) there is no accounting for expiry or settlement. IOUs are issued with no agreed redemption date. This means payers are effectively making open-ended gifts.

b) there is no weighting for the creditworthiness of the issuer e.g. an IOU for 100 USD from person X equals an IOU for 100 USD from person Y, even though person X has a million-dollar house and person Y lives in a culvert.

A further problem is social.

1) 1000 years of Contract Law
2) Ripple
3) Bitcoin

Which is the odd one out?
(Hint: two of them attempt to overcome a particular human failing...
Breaches of trust

That is a really interesting (and to a point eye opening) explanation. I have my reservations about tying any kind of IOU system to BTC. Further, the whole Ripple project seems really complex and a bit tricky - even for tech guys to get. Sounds almost like a potential Trojan Horse to BTC. I say we approach this carefully, very carefully. Get that thing open sourced and have the experts look into it. The longer it is closed, the more we have to worry.

I'm open to studying this Ripple thing more though. Bitcoin clearly needs a decentralized form of exchange at some time. I'm just not feeling it is Ripple at this point.

IAS
member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
Even as it currently exists I think Ripple has some very interesting properties and could be used in a way that would solve certain problems related to liquidity between Bitcoin and legacy currencies.

The properties that I'm interested in do not include the viability of OpenCoin's business model, or XRP price speculation.

Yeah.. I tend to agree. So maybe we could see something built on top of bitcoin using some of these ideas? IOU/debt thing is interesting, although I don't fully grok Ripple yet. (haven't spent enough time with it)
sr. member
Activity: 309
Merit: 250
There seems to be an extremely serious technical flaw which goes to the heart of an IOU trading system:

All IOUs for the same real-world instrument (BTC, USD, Gold, Oranges) are regarded as fully fungible 1:1 even though they originate from different people with different circumstances. This means that:


AFAIK This is not true. You can set up a fee so when IOU-BTC-Bitstamp are converted to IOU-BTC-SOMETHING-ELSE through your account, they are not 1:1 anymore. This is called "transfer rate".
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013


The network effect of transfers, and the trust aspects of it are actually pretty clever.  It has potential.

But in being clever, they ruined everything that makes Bitcoin brilliant.  Bitcoin is brilliant because it is the perfect game theory play.  It motivates everyone to use it, intrinsically.  Ripple motivates no one except OpenCoin.

I've been thinking for weeks about what was bugging me about ripple. You just said it.


Yep
Even as it currently exists I think Ripple has some very interesting properties and could be used in a way that would solve certain problems related to liquidity between Bitcoin and legacy currencies.

The properties that I'm interested in do not include the viability of OpenCoin's business model, or XRP price speculation.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
There seems to be an extremely serious technical flaw which goes to the heart of an IOU trading system:

All IOUs for the same real-world instrument (BTC, USD, Gold, Oranges) are regarded as fully fungible 1:1 even though they originate from different people with different circumstances. This means that:

a) there is no accounting for expiry or settlement. IOUs are issued with no agreed redemption date. This means payers are effectively making open-ended gifts.

b) there is no weighting for the creditworthiness of the issuer e.g. an IOU for 100 USD from person X equals an IOU for 100 USD from person Y, even though person X has a million-dollar house and person Y lives in a culvert.

A further problem is social.

1) 1000 years of Contract Law
2) Ripple
3) Bitcoin

Which is the odd one out?
(Hint: two of them attempt to overcome a particular human failing...
Breaches of trust
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
I've long been suspicious of this misterbigg guy in general. He defends Ripple to the death in every thread and so many of his replies are like freaking essays on the subject. I asked him if he was connected to the Ripple project and he said no... but I find it hard to believe he doesn't stand to gain massively from peddling his rubbish through the forum day and night. What else would drive him to do it sooo much?

But I digress.

I dislike Ripple for various reasons - closed source, dentralized, the owners hold too much of the money etc. But my biggest gripe is how so many of the shills present it as an complement to Bitcoin on the forum yet in the media the people behind it openly state they see Ripple as a competitor to Bitcoin.

And the number of times Ripple shills have said oh these XRP aren't primarily meant to be used to pay for things etc yet they say in their interviews XRP becoming valuable is their entire business model.
IT companies in financial or innovative area(if both like Ripple than even more) all asking their workers to keep secret their salary and and other internals. So misterbigg probably may not disclose some details of agreement with the Ripple network. If you ever worked for a financial institute(especially as IT) than you must know that.
I understood from some of his posts in this thread where he spread some hints that he is very well gaining from Ripple.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002


The network effect of transfers, and the trust aspects of it are actually pretty clever.  It has potential.

But in being clever, they ruined everything that makes Bitcoin brilliant.  Bitcoin is brilliant because it is the perfect game theory play.  It motivates everyone to use it, intrinsically.  Ripple motivates no one except OpenCoin.

I've been thinking for weeks about what was bugging me about ripple. You just said it.


Yep
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1001
I've long been suspicious of this misterbigg guy in general. He defends Ripple to the death in every thread and so many of his replies are like freaking essays on the subject. I asked him if he was connected to the Ripple project and he said no... but I find it hard to believe he doesn't stand to gain massively from peddling his rubbish through the forum day and night. What else would drive him to do it sooo much?

But I digress.

I dislike Ripple for various reasons - closed source, dentralized, the owners hold too much of the money etc. But my biggest gripe is how so many of the shills present it as an complement to Bitcoin on the forum yet in the media the people behind it openly state they see Ripple as a competitor to Bitcoin.

And the number of times Ripple shills have said oh these XRP aren't primarily meant to be used to pay for things etc yet they say in their interviews XRP becoming valuable is their entire business model.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0


The network effect of transfers, and the trust aspects of it are actually pretty clever.  It has potential.

But in being clever, they ruined everything that makes Bitcoin brilliant.  Bitcoin is brilliant because it is the perfect game theory play.  It motivates everyone to use it, intrinsically.  Ripple motivates no one except OpenCoin.

I've been thinking for weeks about what was bugging me about ripple. You just said it.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
he's busy deleting posts of mine as well.  he's [misterbigg) a scumbag Ripple shill.

Right in the spot.

Also, ripple is:
- NOT Open Source (lies on site & wiki)
- NOT Decentralized (lies on site & wiki)
- NOT Based on "the same underlying cryptography as BTC" (lies on site & wiki)
- Printable/Inflatable in any amount, at any time by its creators

For more, check my signature.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
Even if Opencoin releases their source code as they promised, it takes very little to create a clone network that makes a bit of improvement here and there, bundled with another currency hot off the "printing press", which its creators will do everything(yeah, including being a better network operator than Opencoin) to push the price to very high level.

In fact I believe most of the things that Ripplers boast about Ripple can be easily implemented by slightly modify Bitcoin's source code, just that no one will try to implement such  a flawed system.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Of the 4 alt-chain panelists that were there speaking on the mic, the only one I drew into real question was Chris Larsen. All the others appeared to know exactly how their systems worked and could answer very clearly what it did and how it worked without any super long explanations that really said nothing.

Just ask Cypher, he was sitting right next to me...lolz

As Maged said, the part that irks me is that Ripple is being advertised as something that it isn't. I hate that. It is scummy as fuck.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
I am surely not a Ripple fun and I don't ever had any Ripple but I must state that misterbiggs and joekatzls posts are very civilized and very rational at the first view. Probably they are the best payed Ripple bloggers. On the other side they are a lot of trolls payed with a couple of Ripples which are spreading a lot of erroneous rumors and are spamming and irritating everywhere. They are doing the dirty work for the top Ripplers and their boss in the background and they can remain with clean hands.
I must recognize that is a very clever organized system oiled with 50 millions of $ + some from Google.

Read closer of Mr. Bigg's posts.

The guy condones manipulation, he hopes Ripple can establish gateways for people to open up "checking accounts" to use ripple, he claims a lot when most of what is claimed is not even reality.

He calls people asshats because we disagree with him and he censors posts in his moderated Ripple shill thread.

Also the guy is so immature as to PM me to tell me that based on my posted age on my account on this forum (which is not true) that he is shocked how I act. This shows me that he likes to classify people by their ages which I for one am against.

This is the same guy that claimed Litecoin was a scam when it was at 6 cents and look how wrong he was. Litecoin isnt even controlled by a central authority yet he claimed Litecoin was a bullshit copy.

He hopes Ripple/OpenCoin turn a profit then he will be profitable with his XRP investment.

I certainly hope those thinking about using Ripple actually wait until what OpenCoin says they are going to do...they actually do. So many broken promises  and mislabeling of what Ripple is and isn't by the creators.

Lastly, I listened to Chris Larsen talk in the alt-chain panel at the conference this past weekend and each time a question was posed his answers didn't really sell Ripple as viable alternative to Bitcoin nor a compliment. For being one of the main ripple talking heads not to be able to CORRECTLY and CLEARLY describe what the Ripple system is and how it works, is quite a big failure.


I walked by the Ripple booth probably a dozen times this past weekend.

Did anyone see any executives like Larson answering questions?  The only ones I saw were devs.

Each time I passed I either seen Joel or Stephan (? is that his name). So no I did not see anyone else there and I too passed the booth several times.

vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
Pssst, executives don't deserve to have to talk to mere mortals!
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper


He calls people asshats because we disagree with him and he censors posts in his moderated Ripple shill thread.

Also the guy is so immature as to PM me to tell me that based on my posted age on my account on this forum (which is not true) that he is shocked how I act. This shows me that he likes to classify people by their ages which I for one am against.

Sorry I didn't read this post of misterbigg. That means that he gave himself lower as he was before or the former rational posts he just copy pasted from a Ripple archive or different persons are acting 24/7 under this name and some of them are not so good educated.

I am not indicating he can/can't act rational.

My point was don't be so easily deceived by what HE or the Ripple fan boy club are saying, but what they are DOING.

Actions speak...well you know the rest... Cheesy
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