theft/scamming way more profitable (and riskless) than legal businness - page 2.

moocow1452

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Don't mind me.

Quote from: Yolocoin on September 10, 2012, 01:01:41 PM

Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: Herodes on September 10, 2012, 12:27:08 PM

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak. That's bad for business, and once people realize that some people make bank by running Gox or Bitinstant by being honest and open, and they are losing out by ripping people off little by little, then there's more of an incentive to be good and not evil. Unless evil is just more fun, in which case, you need to be so smart about your evil, you might as well be legitimate.

Gareth Nelson

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Quote from: Yolocoin on September 10, 2012, 01:01:41 PM

Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: Herodes on September 10, 2012, 12:27:08 PM

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

How i'd handle it:

1 - Here in the UK i'd use the computer misuse act or fraud charges

2 - Simple answer - tax evasion is illegal too, for myself I do file my tax returns and pay the amount owed under british law, part of which includes funding for the police - so I have absolutely no ethical qualms whatsoever about using the services of the police - whether or not those services are any good is a different question..........

Yolocoin

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Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: Herodes on September 10, 2012, 12:27:08 PM

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

Gareth Nelson

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Activity: 721

Merit: 503

Quote from: Herodes on September 10, 2012, 12:27:08 PM

Quote from: flower1024 on September 10, 2012, 02:03:16 AM

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

Herodes

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Quote from: flower1024 on September 10, 2012, 02:03:16 AM

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

moocow1452

sr. member

Activity: 240

Merit: 250

Don't mind me.

Quote from: ?? on ??

If this is true, educate Bitcoin users. The huge majority of these scams and thefts involved people voluntarily handing over their Bitcoins.

Don't give cash to random internet identities. It's that simple.

Ridiculous.

Point, people are lazy and want to spend money to make money, using Bitcoin as a test bed currency, since it's not fluid enough to be able to pay for your next meal, but still of value. That's an impulse control problem rather than outright malice, since there isn't a consequence to a falsified trade outside of having to leave town and coming back with a new name, there is a scamming subculture in Bitcoin, and people like to pay for concepts rather than tangible goods, and do get pissed when goods don't deliver. Can we fix even that preception, before our goodwill runs out without gutting Bitcoin's anonymity?

^ The way it was spun to me, Bitcoin was based on not having to trust any one person, that it held wealth because we all agreed on it, no matter what anyone thought. Is Bitcoin built to trust no one, or trust everyone, since we're not doing a good job at either right now.

Luno

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Can't somebody with great insight start an inspiring thread; "What would Statoshi say to:"

All currencies are based on trust, so what attract people to Bitcoin in the first place, besides personal gain? Let's make a list of all it's unique qualities not possible with other monetary systems. That would be an encouraging read in times like this. There is no need to promote an alternative idea if it not clear why this is different.

That would help with the moodiness.

paulie_w

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Activity: 420

Merit: 250

Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 09:32:28 AM

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

this is not right.

at this stage in the game, a big theft gets you a decent % of the total bitcoin.

just hold onto it, and you'll have more money than anyone in 10 years.

muyuu

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I think the risk of getting murdered however small cannot be compared to the risk of losing an initial monetary investment.

evolve

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daytrader/superhero

This is exactly why people look at bitcoin as a scam. Con artist roam free and their victims run around supporting them, shouting down reasonable discourse with a chorus of "troll".

Even now, obvious scams are operating openly, right on the heels of the pirate fiasco, and very few people are speaking out against it (unsurprisingly,many more are actively supporting the scammers)

Its sad.

I think I need another forum break.

Gabi

legendary

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

From my EVE experience i know that even after 5 and more years ppl keep falling for scams. Fun fact: everytime they lose more and more money

Same apply for btc

moocow1452

sr. member

Activity: 240

Merit: 250

Don't mind me.

On a strictly pragmatic view, you can steal coins, get away, and no one would know the wiser, but the exact same thing can happen to you and you can't come back to the community for help. The thing you would want to do is get crowdfunded for something you are absolutely passionate about, since all the money in the world can't really make someone happy unless you're doing something with it. You get a system worked where the Bitcoin is just motivation or icing on the cake, and you can go a lot farther than anything you'd put your mind to on your own.

That, and on an ethical viewpoint, you are a douche-bag if you see your customers as resource to be farmed and nothing else. Don't be a douche-bag, or else three spirits will tie you to your bed and beat the living crap out of you come Christmas Eve. Or something.

greyhawk

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Quote from: kokojie on September 10, 2012, 09:52:52 AM

Not if your customers start demanding minimum verifications. I see often in the bitcoin community, people are too easy to trust someone, without demanding
minimum level of verification. I think you better be putting up your government ID, your name address, and have them verified etc... before anyone would be willing to
do business with you.

True enough, although you know that this doesn't happen here.

Here it's:

: "Hi, i have an offer where..."
Tongue

: "Ya? Who you think you are? Huh?"

: ".... where I will give you 7% weekly and...."
Tongue

: "Here's the key to my safebox. Take as much as you need."

Gareth Nelson

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Quote from: greyhawk on September 10, 2012, 09:48:18 AM

Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 09:32:28 AM

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

This is only possible in an environment where you are not a mostly anonymous entity. In an environment like here you just take off that blood soaked nickname, done a new pristine squeaky clean one and you're all set up for the kill of your next juicy victim.

That only works for the little guys or for the thieves who break into other people's services - if you're well-known and meeting people in-person etc it'd be difficult to get a whole new identity and maintain it at the same level.

So basically, if you're a public figure, theft is more difficult.

justusranvier

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Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 09:32:28 AM

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

I agree with this from a theoretical perspective but recent events have shown the existing online reputation systems are wholly insufficient for the task.

The cost-benefit ratio for scamming is skewed at the moment because the cost of obtaining a good reputation is too low so losing it doesn't provide a sufficient deterrent.

I've got a plan for fixing it though.

kokojie

legendary

Activity: 1806

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Not if your customers start demanding minimum verifications. I see often in the bitcoin community, people are too easy to trust someone, without demanding
minimum level of verification. I think you better be putting up your government ID, your name address, and have them verified etc... before anyone would be willing to
do business with you.

N12

donator

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1010

Agreed.

As I recently posted,

Quote

Well, I can't say that the most successful bitcoin ventures haven't consisted of hacking, stealing and defrauding people. It's easy, risk free and extremely lucrative. Kind of too good to be true. Grin

If it's true and people don't find a way to make it more risky (find and punish some of the criminals, for instance), I guess Bitcoin would constitute a negative sum game in which all honest participants lose. I wonder how long such a thing could last.

I think I said similar things back when Bitcoinica was hacked. If the winners of a systems are those that destroy value, the system will not last.

stick_theman

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Too shortsighted. There are too many risks being a thief.

greyhawk

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Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 09:32:28 AM

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

This is only possible in an environment where you are not a mostly anonymous entity. In an environment like here you just take off that blood soaked nickname, done a new pristine squeaky clean one and you're all set up for the kill of your next juicy victim.

drrussellshane

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Activity: 546

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Quote from: Gareth Nelson on September 10, 2012, 09:32:28 AM

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

For it to lack profitability, theft sure is a thriving industry.

Topic: theft/scamming way more profitable (and riskless) than legal businness - page 2. (Read 5758 times)