Thinking of separating my holdings into two physical locations. - page 3.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 25, 2023, 03:56:25 AM

If you aren't telling your spouse ...

then you have some secrets. simple as that. could be big secrets could be small ones. Shocked

not everyone is an "open book" there are different personality types.

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And yeah, how do file your taxes without your spouse knowing?

maybe this?

Married filing separately is a tax status used by married couples who choose to record their incomes, exemptions, and deductions on separate tax returns

i guess it's theoretically possible for a man and wife to not know much about the other's finances. at least here in the usa.

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I preach complete privacy when it comes to the wider public and corporations. There is no need for Facebook or Google to know that I own bitcoin, and there is also no need for Facebook or Google to know what my hobbies are or where I like to shop.

but here you are on the world's most popular cryptocurrency forum. Shocked

i suppose, like satoshi, you have taken care of that though.

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But when it comes to your close family members, then it is a different story. I trust my wife to make life or death decisions about me if I were incapacitated; why wouldn't I trust her to know we own bitcoin?

i don't think it's about that. it's more about someone's personality type. do they like to gossip with their friends and can't keep a secret? if so then someone like that might say something you didn't want them to. some people have big mouths and you just can't trust them to keep their mouth shut about something you'd rather other people didn't know. truth.

Pmalek

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 25, 2023, 03:56:25 AM

I trust my wife to make life or death decisions about me if I were incapacitated; why wouldn't I trust her to know we own bitcoin?

That's exactly right. "We", not "I". "Mine" and "yours" doesn't work in a marriage or it would have to be an extremely unusual communion. "We" had a baby. She gave birth to it, but she gave birth to "our" baby.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Welsh on February 23, 2023, 02:19:26 PM

I mean, if they have any doubt it begs the question why they got married in the first place; since they're signing a document which basically means they're entitled to half of everything.

If you aren't telling your spouse you are involved in bitcoin at all, then you are hiding all your exchange accounts and forum accounts from them too? Do they not question why you have bank transfers to and from centralized exchanges or random individuals if you trade peer to peer? Or do you have a separate hidden fiat bank account that you use only for bitcoin? And yeah, how do file your taxes without your spouse knowing?

Quote from: Welsh on February 24, 2023, 09:25:09 AM

Instead, protect against not revealing you have Bitcoin to the public, and only to those that need to know.

Absolutely this. I preach complete privacy when it comes to the wider public and corporations. There is no need for Facebook or Google to know that I own bitcoin, and there is also no need for Facebook or Google to know what my hobbies are or where I like to shop. But when it comes to your close family members, then it is a different story. I trust my wife to make life or death decisions about me if I were incapacitated; why wouldn't I trust her to know we own bitcoin?

Poker Player

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 21, 2023, 08:58:57 PM

so then you do the math. is it worth it to tell your wife some secrets that you own bitcoin? Shocked

Well, man, if we're setting ourselves up for horror movie scenarios, in this and similar threads, it's not bad to have in your head the possibility that someday you could get divorced and she could use it against you. Even if she's your high school sweetheart and you've been with her for 30 years. I think keeping the possibility in your head is pretty rational.

Another thing is the decision you make, that in the end, whether you tell her or not is very respectable and there each one has to weigh arguments and decide.

Welsh

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 08:01:51 PM

i was thinking more like robbers split up the husband and wife and interrogate them separately. better make sure their stories are consistent. if not then someone is lying.

For the vast majority of people, this isn't going to be a reality. This is; either you live in a part of the world which is notorious for this sort of crime or you're a rather high profile person. This sort of stuff doesn't really happen in a lot of people's realities. Usually, when this sort of stuff happens it's more related to drugs than how much money you hold, otherwise you'd just see these types of people going to rich neighbours, and doing this all the time.

Despite, criminals being criminals; they aren't risk inverse. They're much more likely to attack, and try to get a large holding of fiat money, since they can find that physically within the property, instead of interrogating you for your Bitcoin which is much easier to conceal, and isn't guaranteed you own much either unless you've tied it to your real world identity.

I just feel for most users here, this sort of situation is just so incredibly unlikely, that it's not worth worrying about too much. Instead, protect against not revealing you have Bitcoin to the public, and only to those that need to know. Family, tax man, potentially some friends depending on what situation your in.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Pmalek on February 23, 2023, 02:40:36 PM

I understand what you are saying but I don't think it makes much difference. If you are rich and someone knows that and uses your wife to get to your money, they aren't going to speculate whether or not she knows something. If she does, great, tell us. If not, call your husband and have him tell us, or else...

i was thinking more like robbers split up the husband and wife and interrogate them separately. better make sure their stories are consistent. if not then someone is lying.

Pmalek

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 07:54:15 PM

telling a wife or trusted person some secrets always comes at a risk. by giving them that information they can become a target if someone else thinks or knows they know that information. it's not about whether you trust them but what type of situation it might possibly put them into.

I understand what you are saying but I don't think it makes much difference. If you are rich and someone knows that and uses your wife to get to your money, they aren't going to speculate whether or not she knows something. If she does, great, tell us. If not, call your husband and have him tell us, or else...

Welsh

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 22, 2023, 05:05:06 AM

So if you don't trust your wife to know about your bitcoin, do you trust her to know about your fiat? Do you have secret off shore bank accounts which you skim some of your income in to each month? What about your other assets together - property, cars, etc.? Better keep her name off of everything and make her pay rent to live in your house?

I feel like a lot of users treat Bitcoin like it's some super secret thing, but ultimately it's just an alternative. I get it; we are our own bank, and therefore we are responsible for it. However, I'd like to think people can trust their spouses. I mean, if they have any doubt it begs the question why they got married in the first place; since they're signing a document which basically means they're entitled to half of everything.

If you aren't telling your wife about your Bitcoin, you probably aren't telling the tax man either. Since, I believe the divorce solicitor can inquire about the tax man about undeclared earnings. So, you'd be in big trouble, however it went.

Quote from: erep on February 23, 2023, 01:57:39 PM

Trust in your wife is very specific depending on how you judge her behavior, our location has low divorce cases

I wouldn't look at locations or the local statistics of divorce. Just look at your wife, and determine whether you trust her or not. If you don't, I imagine your marriage isn't going all that well. You have to trust certain people in your life, that's what humans do. However, you get to pick, and they aren't like banks that will use you, as long as you pick a good one.

erep

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 07:54:15 PM

telling a wife or trusted person some secrets always comes at a risk. by giving them that information they can become a target if someone else thinks or knows they know that information. it's not about whether you trust them but what type of situation it might possibly put them into. yes they can pretend they don't know anything but if your story doesn't match theirs then someone is lying. robbers aren't dumb. but in the end you do what you think is most reasonable.

Trust in your wife is very specific depending on how you judge her behavior, our location has low divorce cases and our spouses will keep secrets for any interest but the main thing is don't publish any investment to others so they won't suspect having assets bitcoin on hw or exchange, so our family will never be the target of robbery or any kind of crime because they will not dig any information from our investment portfolio. Never show off bitcoin investments to anyone and any social media, let your assets be anonymous and there is no benefit if other people know about it and only cause trouble for your family.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 22, 2023, 05:05:06 AM

It is often important information in order to make an accurate diagnosis or provide safe treatment. Illegal drug use is the most common.

maybe but say you robbed a bank and got shot. the fact that the bullet wound happened at the bank is kind of immaterial so that could be conveniently left out.

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But no, I don't see any reason that you would ever tell your doctor that you are holding large amounts of bitcoin.

maybe if they are withholding some important medical treatment and need a proof you can pay?

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So if you don't trust your wife to know about your bitcoin, do you trust her to know about your fiat?

telling a wife or trusted person some secrets always comes at a risk. by giving them that information they can become a target if someone else thinks or knows they know that information. it's not about whether you trust them but what type of situation it might possibly put them into. yes they can pretend they don't know anything but if your story doesn't match theirs then someone is lying. robbers aren't dumb. but in the end you do what you think is most reasonable.

Pmalek

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 21, 2023, 08:58:57 PM

so here's the thing. what would you have to gain by telling a doctor or someone that you committed a crime? probably none right? so why do it?

It's not a question of why you would do it, but what would happen if you do? You could also ask why would someone commit murder or molest someone, but it still happens daily all over the world. People do stupid things and reveal secrets and nasty stuff after getting drunk in the bar.

If you talk to a psychologist because you are depressed, the doctor is going to ask you the reason for your depression. Maybe you will put off telling them the exact cause and eventually mention you hurt someone. Since psychologists insist you keep talking, maybe you will mention more details and that's how the information about a crime gets revealed.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Pmalek on February 21, 2023, 02:07:11 PM

There has to be exceptions to that law, right?

It is very dependent on your country, state, or jurisdiction. Most places will require a breach of physician-patient confidentiality in the case of violent crimes, rape, child abuse, realistic threats of any of these, that kind of thing. There are also times where we would breach confidentiality but not to law enforcement, such as telling a public health authority like the CDC if you were diagnosed with a notifiable disease. Generally financial crime would not be included in any of this, but I can't speak for every jurisdiction. Further, some places can require a physician or other healthcare professional to testify against a patient in court; others cannot.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 21, 2023, 08:58:57 PM

what would you have to gain by telling a doctor or someone that you committed a crime? probably none right? so why do it?

It is often important information in order to make an accurate diagnosis or provide safe treatment. Illegal drug use is the most common. But no, I don't see any reason that you would ever tell your doctor that you are holding large amounts of bitcoin.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 21, 2023, 08:58:57 PM

so then you do the math. is it worth it to tell your wife some secrets that you own bitcoin?

So if you don't trust your wife to know about your bitcoin, do you trust her to know about your fiat? Do you have secret off shore bank accounts which you skim some of your income in to each month? What about your other assets together - property, cars, etc.? Better keep her name off of everything and make her pay rent to live in your house?

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: Poker Player on February 21, 2023, 05:43:48 AM

AFAIK similar laws exist in most industrialized countries but those kind of laws do not prevent your ex-wife (or your still wife but in the process of divorce) from testifying against you if she willingly wants to.

so then you do the math. is it worth it to tell your wife some secrets that you own bitcoin? Shocked

Quote from: Pmalek

There has to be exceptions to that law, right? A psychologist is a doctor. They can't disclose the information you have confided to them. But if the information concerns someone's life, they are allowed to notify the authorities and probably to testify against you.

so here's the thing. what would you have to gain by telling a doctor or someone that you committed a crime? probably none right? so why do it? why tell anyone anything except maybe a lawyer. even then they probably know you're guilty already so they shouldn't really need to ask...it's not their job to prove you're not guilty anyhow.

Pmalek

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 19, 2023, 10:19:03 PM

this is how it works in the united states:
Under the law, no one can be required to disclose any information, whether verbal or written, that was confidentially exchanged within the following relationships:

doctor and patient

There has to be exceptions to that law, right? A psychologist is a doctor. They can't disclose the information you have confided to them. But if the information concerns someone's life, they are allowed to notify the authorities and probably to testify against you. What if you tell your doctor you are thinking of killing someone or that you have killed someone. The doctor could maybe be considered an accomplice if they do nothing with that knowledge. I don't know what the law says about having knowledge of financial crime and can the information be used against you.

Poker Player

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Quote from: Pmalek on February 18, 2023, 02:43:01 AM

Of course, we have. I speak for everyone when I say that all our countries have been so helpful and open-minded with everything Bitcoin. They have offered free education, tax benefits, and a simple reporting and administrative process to declare our crypto holdings. It's a one-click task. It's so good giving back when you have had so much support by your local authorities. Not

I didn't quite catch what you were saying until this second time I read it again, so the delayed merit is for that.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 19, 2023, 10:19:03 PM

this is how it works in the united states:

Under the law, no one can be required to disclose any information, whether verbal or written, that was confidentially exchanged within the following relationships:

husband and wife
lawyer and client
doctor and patient, and
religious advisor and advisee (although this privilege is often referred to as "priest-penitent," it applies more generally to any confidential conversation between a member of the clergy of a recognized religion and a person seeking spiritual counsel).

AFAIK similar laws exist in most industrialized countries but those kind of laws do not prevent your ex-wife (or your still wife but in the process of divorce) from testifying against you if she willingly wants to.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 15, 2023, 04:33:20 AM

I'm one of the strongest privacy advocates on this forum, but at some point, this just becomes common sense to let your spouse know.

this is how it works in the united states:

Under the law, no one can be required to disclose any information, whether verbal or written, that was confidentially exchanged within the following relationships:

husband and wife
lawyer and client
doctor and patient, and
religious advisor and advisee (although this privilege is often referred to as "priest-penitent," it applies more generally to any confidential conversation between a member of the clergy of a recognized religion and a person seeking spiritual counsel).

Thing is that doesn't stop someone from suing you and then their lawyer begins a discovery process to uncover all of your assets. And you might be required to provide a list of all your assets including any cryptocurrency holdings. But there seems to be some grey area about that where courts have ruled one way in one situation and another way in another...

So dont forget about protecting yourself from stupid lawsuits they can happen at any time some may be valid others may be not! Shocked

but how you would go about that i'm not too sure.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Saint-loup on February 19, 2023, 10:40:38 AM

You just need to tell your wife where is located your encrypted seed, then she will be able to access your encrypted seed but not being able to decrypt it while your relatives will be able to access your password (if they unseal the envelope at least) but not being able to locate your encrypted seed.

You are just trusting two people instead of one. If you don't want to trust anyone, then trustless solutions are better.

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 19, 2023, 10:40:38 AM

AFAIK you can't spend anymore funds included in a timelocked transaction before its expiry date once your timelocked transaction has been mined.

You can spend the coins any time you like. The timelocked transaction can only be mined after the timelock has passed. If you need to spend the funds, then you can do so and then simply replace the timelocked transaction.

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 19, 2023, 10:40:38 AM

In addition, it implies to know at which date you will die. That's not convenient at all.

Not at all. Create the transaction for 6 months in the future. If you are still alive, invalidate it and create a new one another 6 months in the future.

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 19, 2023, 10:40:38 AM

You can check the service from time to time before losing your memory or dying, if you are afraid of that.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems absolutely crazy to me that you wouldn't trust your own wife to even know that you own bitcoin, but you are quite happy to trust a bunch of complete strangers (with a track record of terrible security and privacy) to store part of your back ups.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 19, 2023, 09:41:05 AM

And if you don't tell them what it is or where your encrypted seed is located, then how will they recover it after your death? Either you tell them your whole set up, in which case you are trusting them just like I trust my wife, or you don't tell them the set up, in which case you run the risk of them never being able to recover your coins.

If you don't have a family member you can trust, then there are trustless ways to set up inheritance, such as by using timelocked transactions. This is a better solution than giving out passwords in envelopes.

You just need to tell your wife where is located your encrypted seed, then she will be able to access your encrypted seed but not being able to decrypt it while your relatives will be able to access your password (if they unseal the envelope at least) but not being able to locate your encrypted seed.

AFAIK you can't spend anymore funds included in a timelocked transaction before its expiry date once your timelocked transaction has been mined. In addition, it implies to know at which date you will die. That's not convenient at all.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 19, 2023, 09:41:05 AM

Leak it over the entire internet, as they've done with plenty of data in the past? Store it in plaintext, as they were caught doing with users' passwords for 14 years? Or maybe just shut down the service you are relying on, meaning your data is lost forever.

You can check the service from time to time before losing your memory or dying, if you are afraid of that.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 19, 2023, 09:41:05 AM

Because she is not an idiot. If she is at risk of falling to such a low level scam, then so is everyone on this forum and nobody's bitcoin is safe. Not to mention that it would be significantly more difficult and time consuming for her to collect all the necessary back ups to start emptying various bitcoin wallets than it would be to log in to a fiat account and empty it out.

Yes I think nobody is safe with his Bitcoin funds, even you, because obviously other people than you have plain access to your funds. That's disappointing, but we have to admit that Bitcoin is risky for everybody.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 18, 2023, 04:01:37 AM

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 16, 2023, 11:18:09 AM

You can simply encrypt your seed with a password (or use a split seed) and write this password in your will left at a notary

True, and that's a good system for someone who does not have anyone they can trust. But if you do have someone you can trust, you don't need to do this. It also doesn't help very much in the situation where I suffer memory problems but am still very much alive, which happens to literally millions of people a year, and can be a very long and complex process to gain access to the assets of someone who is still alive.

AFAIK most countries laws allow people to update and modify their will, so you would certainly be able to make a codicil and thus to read your own will, even if you have lost your memory actually.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Saint-loup on February 18, 2023, 05:59:12 PM

I was just suggesting to give them the password of the encrypted seed(or a share of your split seed) you want to bequeath to your wife, instead of a notary. Even if they open the envelope and guess it's a password of an encrypted seed, they won't be able to find it if you don't say to them where it is located.

And if you don't tell them what it is or where your encrypted seed is located, then how will they recover it after your death? Either you tell them your whole set up, in which case you are trusting them just like I trust my wife, or you don't tell them the set up, in which case you run the risk of them never being able to recover your coins.

If you don't have a family member you can trust, then there are trustless ways to set up inheritance, such as by using timelocked transactions. This is a better solution than giving out passwords in envelopes.

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 18, 2023, 05:59:12 PM

Why? What Google could do with a password of an offline encrypted seed ?

Leak it over the entire internet, as they've done with plenty of data in the past? Store it in plaintext, as they were caught doing with users' passwords for 14 years? Or maybe just shut down the service you are relying on, meaning your data is lost forever.

Quote from: Saint-loup on February 18, 2023, 05:59:12 PM

Besides that, if there is already a risk that your wife does that with your fiat money why do you want to add an extra risk with your cryptos?

Because she is not an idiot. If she is at risk of falling to such a low level scam, then so is everyone on this forum and nobody's bitcoin is safe. Not to mention that it would be significantly more difficult and time consuming for her to collect all the necessary back ups to start emptying various bitcoin wallets than it would be to log in to a fiat account and empty it out.

Pmalek

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 19, 2023, 12:22:55 AM

you got alot of people that merited this point of view but i'm not so sure i agree with the philosophy of having staggered amounts in various wallets. on one hand, i guess it could limit your losses if an armed thug is not so determined and happy with getting $2000 without really pressing you for more. but what happens if the 0.1BTC is not enough? how much are you willing to go through before you admit to the 0.5BTC wallet and turn that over? once they see that you're playing this game, the sky is really the limit and then the real risk becomes that they don't believe you when you say the 5BTC wallet was the biggest one you had because you said that about all the other ones too. Shocked

then you're really in trouble. could be in trouble.

It's a combination of a few factors. First of all, the thieves shouldn't even know you have 0.1 BTC, let alone, 0.5 or 5 BTC. If they already know that, you have messed up somewhere and the question now is how far are they willing to go? Killing someone isn't the same as robbing someone. You get life imprisonment for the former and maybe 5 or 10 years for the latter. It depends, of course, on the country.

Your acting skills will also affect the outcome. Make it believable you don't have more than 0.1 BTC. If they know you do, they will tell you about it. Based on that you can figure out if they really know or if it's a game of phishing.

Topic: Thinking of separating my holdings into two physical locations. - page 3. (Read 1079 times)