Topic: THIS CRASH IS DIFFERENT than previous crashes... The FEDERAL RESERVE is why.... - page 2. (Read 1577 times)

I agree that what you mentioned fits needs, but i would argue that it fits them outside the core needs of money. Maybe it can spark some interest and help this good to become more popular and easier to trade with. But then after this, it depends on how good it performs as money to succeed for being used as money. Gold is way more valuable than fiat and yet we still ended up with fiat smh. So i looked at the whys.

In my mind i use the criteria:

Most saleable good(easiness of tradebility with a good)
Store of Value - (Scarcity, durability)
Medium of exchange - (Acceptability, Portability)
Unit of Account - (Divisibility, Fungibility)

Gold lacks so hard in portability and divisibility that it becomes so hard to use it as money. Now if you make jewellery out of gold it becomes even worse as money, because it looses more fungibility additionally.

That’s why im arguing that even when a good can be used as money/ something else at the same time, doing so would hurt it in the area you’re not intending to use it for. So in my mind i separate the two by use case. Jewellery isn’t money and my gold bar/coin is money, even tho they’re both gold, they suit different needs better. But people could do this however they prefer, but these core properties i mentioned above definitely matter for the use as money.

Because Gold lacks so hard for regular usage, people had to find an easier way to do trade. You can’t even easily divide gold for smaller payments for example. So they started to use Paper, that was first backed by gold. Then the paper was used solely as money itself, because there was flaws in the gold standard.(i won’t go in deeper now)

Now we’re going into next era and the paper and everything else is started to being traded digitally, but the old system doesn’t really fit into this natively. And Fiat itself is not a system that can even survive without constant intervention, more control and more extreme and more extreme inequality. It’s a weak fragile form of money, the debt based money creation makes it a worse store of value with everytime it’s used.

So now we have something like Bitcoin coming up, that is superior to gold and fiat in every property mentioned above except acceptability, but we know acceptability grows with adoption. We have additional features like censorship resistance, decentralization, transaction finality that just fit way better to money that is used digitally, that actually makes trade easier in this environment, we shouldn’t forget that this is the core function of money. Fiat makes trade harder everyday and is tanking the economy in the process.

It’s native internet money, not an afterthought that doesn’t really fit like fiat. I think that just by basic economical money principles, Bitcoin is the next logical advancement of money. It can fit all the needs you could think of, better, it doesn’t matter if it can be used for something else or not, in my opinion.

That’s why im making a clear separation between money and economic resource, a good needs to specialise in one of the two. Bitcoin could be useless at anything else and would still win the money game by a lot, and yet i never keep hearing them mentioning anything about this.

If you check these criteria out, you will also notice quickly that Bitcoin beats any altcoins by a lot in this, even tho it has less features. Fundamentals just matter more in my opinion. It defeats the altcoin narrative.

I think bitcoin haters exist solely because of:
It could be, it would be nice to hear HardFacts honest reasoning for thinking Bitcoin is worthless.

Thanks for your honesty at this point, but as we can still see it is more about preferences. When you hire a graphic designer or developer here on the forum, it is usually denoted in USD per hour in converted into a certain crypto. No doubt about what you said, there are lots of countries where 20k a year would put you even in an amazing position. I am not sure though in how far people are willing to seal contracts denoted in Bitcoin per year and in how far there is infrastructure in the aforementioned countries to facilitate this type of contract. It still comes down to speculation. When would Elon Musk accept one Bitcoin for a Tesla when it was at 70,000 USD? Only when he thinks that Bitcoin has the potential to go up. So there is still some type of implied speculation in most transactions within the Bitcoin economy.

This logic has been debunked so many times. Any currency is worth whatever the free market will pay for it. No one is inclined to give you any amount of goods per any unit currency unless that currency is pegged to something inherently valuable. Gold standard is long gone so that isn't going to work. I suppose you believe that currency has inherent value because the government sustains that value? You happen to have more faith in the system than any other rational person. Record inflation rates from COVID money printing in nearly every currency, and these are the people you trust?

Actually, making jewellery is one the things that does give monetary value. If gold was a dead rock, with boring grey color, it'd not fit to you as it does now. Being pretty does satisfy need. There are far more clever ways to utilize it essentially, though.

I think bitcoin haters exist solely because of:

Good points, but he doesnt even get the basics yet. That the success of money isnt dependent on its uses outside of being money. All of these Bitcoin haters keep bringing up what they cant use it for and that this is what makes it worthless, but its just foolish to believe this. Its nice that people can wipe their ass with fiat or make jewlery out of gold, but this is not what gives these things its monetary value. There is a monetary value that is independent from any other use case. Gold has a monetary premium and would be worth way less, if it wasnt for its monetary properities alone. They should maybe study the properties behind money and then it becomes more clear. Or maybe its just too abstract to get for most people and they keep mixing things up.

if you think the only thing of bitcoin is to buy/sell it on an exchange. thats your error.
people can mine it, and work for it. and sell and buy goods and services for it

heck there are people on this forum getting paid in bitcoin to moderate this forum and well the obvious ones that spend their time advertising businesses and altnets.

so imagine a world without a btc-fiat exchange.. bitcoin still has function.
miners give it to employees as a wage, merchants sell goods and produce for it. and pays their employees. the employees then buy goods and services with it... oh wait thats called a currency.. wow i just described bitcoin as being a currency.. amazing.. right..

bitcoin is more then an investment its a currency. before bitcoin even had a exchange market price. people were buying pizza, alpaca socks, cupcakes and even drugs with it.
wiki was accepting donations. the list goes on. all before things like mtgox really got established.

even before that bitcoin was used for multiple things. you would be surprised what you can do with bitcoin.

even as a investment. there is more you can do with it then just holding value. you can organise that value without the need of bank managers and lawyers. by this i mean things like multisig to put it into escrows, or family trusts or off shore storage. split it up and store it in different keys where those keys are in different formats(engraved, on paper, on flashdrives, in hardware wallets. made into seed phases, list goes on

but hey. if you think that if the exchanges disappear bitcoin has no features.. you have a big lesson to learn.
face to face swaps were even a thing before exchanges. so that will continue too

People can (and do) use Bitcoin for things other than money.  You can send a transaction to yourself in order to permanently record a message in the Bitcoin blockchain which can never be deleted or censored.  Name another form of money which can do that.  

You keep focusing on bitcoin (the unit of account), but conveniently forget all about Bitcoin (the network, the protocol, the blockchain) and you can't use the network/protocol/blockchain without owning the the unit of account.  If you don't incorporate those things into your understanding, you will never comprehend why we see value and you cannot.  

BTC will be BTC no matter what. It has been through many things, and yet here it stands. You can say whatever you can. Smart people will just buy the DIP.

Lol your user name “hardfacts” is pretty funny considering most of everything I’ve seen you post is total bullshit. As a financial advisor by trade, I can tell you that you’re wrong about money printing and it having a big effect on stocks. You really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.  Bitcoin doesn’t need intrinsic value. Period.

I don't think that this crash is different from previous crash few years ago in my opinion, at least we still see some altcoins pumping few days back despite the fact that the crash was there, in the previous bear crash few years ago, there is no altcoins that can pump immensely when bitcoin is down, and lots of altcoin tend to pick up faster, if you look at the chart of some altcoins few days ago, some has up to six green daily candle example is $comp, yfi and some other altcoins. This crash aint same as the previous ones

And still your loaf of bread is terrible money and will get bad if you don’t use it in some productive way. That’s why it’s not used as money.

While Bitcoin is just amazing at being money, and that’s enough for being just money. How many times did you use fiat for other things than money? You can’t eat, drink or do anything with it. And yet still want it more than a loaf of bread, that’s the irony. You don’t even understand money and would still prefer it over an actual economic resource. Because you understand that money can acquire you any economic resource you want, and that’s the purpose of money. Enabling universal indirect trade.

There’s a difference between an economic resource and money. Money is non-productive by nature, while economic resources are. This means money is used to acquire, trade economic resources and make production happen, but not used to produce something directly. While economic resources are used in the opposite way. The good that can fulfill the function of money best, will become the dominant money, it’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if it’s usable in different ways itself or not, for its success as money.

What if the situation never comes where there is no one willing is willing to buy? What if the buyers and demand increase every passing year and you keep on dreaming that one day no one will be able to sell. bitcoins.

You are calling a bitcoin buyer a fool, while one day you will realize that those who do not have bitcoins are bigger fools.

And so is fiat. There's nothing you can do with 1, 10, 100 million USD if nobody is willing to exchange goods for it, but I don't see you call this a scam. Humans appear to be satisfied with money, even if they can't intrinsically utilize it.

If the "greater fool" gains censorship-resistance, pseudo-anonymity, minimum costs, nearly-instant speed of transaction confirmation across the world, zero-cost divided possession of property and an established monetary policy with a scheduled inflation, he might not be a fool. He gains none of those in electronic fiat, and half neither on physical cash.

You could resell a loaf of bread if you want and maybe make a profit.  You could also eat your loaf of bread if you do not want to re-sell it.


What would you do with your bitcoin if you could never sell it        NOTHING    That means it has zero intrinsic value.  The only value that Bitcoin has is what some greater fool will pay for it.

in retail. the buying team and sales team of retailers. do not guage bread VALUE on middle PRICES. they gauge it on the lowest possible amount. meaning the cheapest most efficient farmer my example was not based on some middle priced farmer you can then "what about".. it was based on the bottomline cost farmers/bakers refuse to sell below because its impossible to make bread for less
yes the retail warehouse buying team may not get that rate, and may need to PAY more. but what they pay is the speculative PRICE. . the underlying value is always below price.


the PRICE(retail/market)... ill say this three times PRICE PRICE PRICE. is what people are willing to pay for it at the moment. as thats what they pay.. at that moment it is X and at another moment it is Y. its speculative, unpredictable.. thats why the PRICE is volatile ..

but the PRICE.. is not value.
ill say it three times.. the PRICE is not VALUE... the price is NOT VALUE... the price is NOT VALUE.

the concept is very simple...
FORGET THE RANDOM RATES and speculative stuff of whimsy and sentiment and profit.. of the PRICE
thats all just speculation, the foam ontop of the latte. the bubbles at the top of the bath water.. the visible part of an iceburg above water..

look for the bits beneath that floating stuff at the top. find the bottom.. and i know your hinting "what about" stuff in the middle.. well if your looking in the middle. you have not found the bottom yet.

when i say $0.50 for bread im not using that number as the middle or top. im talking about the bottom. the lowest price any farmer can farm for... there is no "what about" below it in this scenario.
so forget thinking im talking about the middle or tops when i use examples of the underlying value

like right now bitcoin mining costs between $0.03 to $0.38 per kwh in electric prices, where places like japan are the highest. and slavic nordic countries are the lowest.
this is not about you "what about japan 0.38". or "what about america 0.12 what about"..


its about finding the ultimate bottom.. the actual bottom cost they refuse and impossible to sell below.. . concentrating on the low/bottom
forget the 0.38 or the 0.12 "what abouts" of electric.. find the 0.03 of electric.. and then math out the actual bottomline cost.

the random sentiment and variance above the bottom is all the many possible factors that build speculation.. but if you just stop thinking about all that and find the bottom cost. the cost no one can go below. then you have found the underlying value.

yes if things get more efficient but the hashrate competition doesnt rise to compensate, the underlying value can go down. but not to the same volatility/extent/temporality as the speculative sentiment of variables that are above that that are the market retail price.

..
if you are finding number cheaper than other numbers.. take the bottom number.. .. its simple

Idk, what if for another farmer it will cost $0.30 to grow enough wheat for a loaf of bread, and for another bakery it will cost $0.05 to bake the dough into bread? What's the "intrinsic value" of a loaf of bread then?

I'm not an economist, but I still think that the "value" of something is what people are willing to pay for it at the moment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

reversing? you mean reserving. here is the thing though.. the payments that go through channels during routing. are not bitcoin transactions. they are messages in a different format that are using units of measure called msat.
someone can easily use a edited wallet which allow them to change the features of that LN channels and get its customers to download that wallet. where by it is able to easily change the pegging of 1:1000 to 1:100 or the oposite 1:10,000 thus when user see's he is sending 3000msat in the gui thinking he is sending 3sat. underneath it he could be sending 30sat or 0.3sat

this mechanism can actually affect more then those in the channel.

if people did have this wallet..
his GUI might see that he was sending 3000msat(converted: 3sat). all chanels using that software might seen events of 3000msat.. BUT.. but underneath he was sending a signature of 30,000msat(converting to 30sat later). which the middleman then sends 3000msat(converting to 0.3sat(round to zero). and vice versa. where by although they all see 3000msat passing around, and for many days they are locked in..  thinking the msat amounts are right.. the rounding conversions underneath in the raw commits they dont see.. can all be different. all the way through the network of hops using the software.
and they all only realise it if they were to exit LN.. (something LN nerds dont want because they prefer people to stay in LN and just "rebalance" internally)
in bitcoin you cant do that. its easy to spot it and bitcoin audits it. unlike the altnet you want to defend that has no consensus or network wide audit. plus it would get worse for LN security if they add the mimble wimble feature to completely hide value in the commits. no way to manually see a raw commit and work out the value then. your then too reliant on the code calculating and well miscalculating amounts for display purposes

now do me one favour and ask yourself absolutely honestly.. whenever you accepted/autopiloted a route for someone else or a payment out. have you always looked behind the GUI to find the commit to ensure the commits raw data match what the GUI shows. or do you just "trust" the gui is working as expected when you press a button to agree to accept a payment forward or press the autopilot to do it without your manual involvement in accepting every event.

think about that.
i dont need your response(the answer is obvious) nor do i want your defensive verbal insults. just ponder the thought.

and now lets get back on topic without the usual drama cause by you lot defending an altnet thats not bitcoin

As always, posting flawed analogies, fractional reserve with turbo - wow.

Here's some main differences:

• Reversing an opening-turbo-channel transaction affects only those who use turbo. In contrast, fractional reserve system affects all fiat users.
• No "Lightning Network operator" can lend money of an unconfirmed opening-turbo-channel transaction.
• You can verify the existence of opening-turbo-channel transactions and choose to not transact with people who consider RBF-enabled unconfirmed transactions settled. On the other hand, fractional reserve is entirely opaque.
• Fractional reserve requires faith.

Oh. And turbo is just a drop in the bucket called Lightning Network.

doomad. go cry in your little corner again. you think that LN is bitcoin2.0 post 2017
LN is a pegged altnet. it is not bitcoin. no bitcoins ever leave the bitcoin network. no extra bitcoins are created to be used on an altnet. (learn this fact or it wil hit you hard when you realise it later), what you play with is not bitcoin. but after 5 years you are still yet having issues learning this..
your altnet has to have more msats in the combined network than the amount that payments a sender needs to send/able to be made by the network(one of many flaws)

the altnet you support, which has no consensus at all,  has the worse security structure and bugs list compared to some of the sidechains that recently collapsed. yep your favoured altnet you pretend is bitcoin is the one that can  fractional reserve(EG thor turbo), and also as a separate flaw, lose its 1sat:1000msat peg VERY easily. and most novice users of your altnet wallets wont even notice it happening until they closed out their channel and realised their loses on the lack of return to bitcoin
dont protect your silly altcoin. or pretend your altnet is bitcoin.

no where in my posts about bitcoin in this topic did i even reference things like segwit either. im talking about the fundamental function of the bitcoin network. not the recent tx formats used as gateways to altnets.
your response quoted in this post has nothing to do with the topic. you are just making personal attacks and insults. which is why you are the troll. dont make another emotional post, find something meaningful to say. something about bitcoin and how it has utility(i mean bitcoin, not an opportunity to advertise your altnet of pegged msat or the features that give you access to your altnet)

im talking about the fundamental features of BITCOIN. the ones that stood the test of time since 2009
such as the difficulty that give it a different creation path compared to say PoS, where PoW has actual value and cost involved in its creation, where by its not just 'printing money' (fiat)
im talking about the limited supply of the block reward and halvings. and the rules that allow accounting and validating the coins in circulation..  that is the difference compared to the structure of altnets and many altcoins and fiat that just create units at no cost/limit

there is a major difference of the fundamental function and utility of BITCOIN. compared to the features that work with your altnet.. if you cannot tell the difference. then take some time to work it out.

Honestly in most nations you would still be working for 1 bitcoin and be fine. Yes, you wouldn't be making a bank in most western nations, but you would still survive. If you are making 20k a year in the USA, that is not ideal and you would be poor, but you wouldn't be the worst situation person, you would still be surviving, and it is a bit over minimum wage. Hell if you have another roommate that also works and makes that much, for a 40k a year, a household could stand, noodles and ramen but it could stand.

This is one of the richest nations in the world, if you look at other places like UK or Germany, it would be about the similar issue. The lower you go, the better life you would have. I am not even making 20k a year, I can tell you that much, and I am middle income in my nation, none of my friends make as much as I make, I am richest among my friends, and yet I am not making 20k a year.