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myrkul
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This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
#40
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 10:28:38 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
On the contrary, it works just fine in the event of a surplus. Here's the way supply and demand works:
High demand, High supply, price stable and high.
High demand, Low supply, price increases until demand is met.
Low demand, High supply, price decreases until surplus is exhausted.
Low demand, Low supply, price stable and low.

If everyone is a manufacturer, then obviously the demand of manufactured goods would be low, perhaps the only manufactured good that would actually see trade would be the "printer." Instead, there would be a demand for raw materials, especially the rarer elements. Division of labor would likely hold out, but for fewer things. The economy might look something like this:
Energy producers --energy--> general populace --energy--> Matter producers
Energy producers <--matter-- general populace <--matter-- Matter producers

No, because printers will be expected to be able to manufacture more printers.
Yes, but without a printer, you can't make a printer.
Population is always increasing, people keep making more people. And they don't come out of the womb with a printer in their hands. Thus, the only manufactured good that would see trade is the printer.
There will be a startup phase, of course.
But once enough printers are made (by both big manufacturers and home producers) the market will collapse.
But people keep making more people. These people will need printers. Thus, they will trade with someone who already has a printer, in order to get one. Thus, the only manufactured good that would see trade is the printer.
I feel like I'm talking to a wall.
ElectricMucus
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 10:35:01 AM
#39
You two Smiley

shall I move this thread somewhere else since this debate has evolved into something else?
mobodick
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Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 10:28:38 AM
#38
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
On the contrary, it works just fine in the event of a surplus. Here's the way supply and demand works:
High demand, High supply, price stable and high.
High demand, Low supply, price increases until demand is met.
Low demand, High supply, price decreases until surplus is exhausted.
Low demand, Low supply, price stable and low.

If everyone is a manufacturer, then obviously the demand of manufactured goods would be low, perhaps the only manufactured good that would actually see trade would be the "printer." Instead, there would be a demand for raw materials, especially the rarer elements. Division of labor would likely hold out, but for fewer things. The economy might look something like this:
Energy producers --energy--> general populace --energy--> Matter producers
Energy producers <--matter-- general populace <--matter-- Matter producers

No, because printers will be expected to be able to manufacture more printers.
Yes, but without a printer, you can't make a printer.
Population is always increasing, people keep making more people. And they don't come out of the womb with a printer in their hands. Thus, the only manufactured good that would see trade is the printer.
There will be a startup phase, of course.
But once enough printers are made (by both big manufacturers and home producers) the market will collapse.

myrkul
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
#37
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
On the contrary, it works just fine in the event of a surplus. Here's the way supply and demand works:
High demand, High supply, price stable and high.
High demand, Low supply, price increases until demand is met.
Low demand, High supply, price decreases until surplus is exhausted.
Low demand, Low supply, price stable and low.

If everyone is a manufacturer, then obviously the demand of manufactured goods would be low, perhaps the only manufactured good that would actually see trade would be the "printer." Instead, there would be a demand for raw materials, especially the rarer elements. Division of labor would likely hold out, but for fewer things. The economy might look something like this:
Energy producers --energy--> general populace --energy--> Matter producers
Energy producers <--matter-- general populace <--matter-- Matter producers

No, because printers will be expected to be able to manufacture more printers.
Yes, but without a printer, you can't make a printer.
Population is always increasing, people keep making more people. And they don't come out of the womb with a printer in their hands. Thus, the only manufactured good that would see trade is the printer.
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 10:09:41 AM
#36
Quote from: myrkul on April 09, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
On the contrary, it works just fine in the event of a surplus. Here's the way supply and demand works:
High demand, High supply, price stable and high.
High demand, Low supply, price increases until demand is met.
Low demand, High supply, price decreases until surplus is exhausted.
Low demand, Low supply, price stable and low.

If everyone is a manufacturer, then obviously the demand of manufactured goods would be low, perhaps the only manufactured good that would actually see trade would be the "printer." Instead, there would be a demand for raw materials, especially the rarer elements. Division of labor would likely hold out, but for fewer things. The economy might look something like this:
Energy producers --energy--> general populace --energy--> Matter producers
Energy producers <--matter-- general populace <--matter-- Matter producers

No, because printers will be expected to be able to manufacture more printers.
Big manufacturers will find it very hard to future-proof their income with gracefull sabotage. Since people will become their own manufacturer it is in their own interest to make more durable stuff.
So as soon as everybody has their printer not only will the printer market collapse but any market whos needs can be fulfilled by the printer.
There will be some market for raw materials but it won't be very lucrative since you can recycle atoms pretty well.
I think that for some things the demand can crash completely.
Like the demand for sand in Egypt. For sure there is some demand for some exotic sand in Egypt or just large quantities of nicely packed sand. But for most people when they need sand, they just go to their back yard and pick some off the ground.
I think this will happen to energy as well.

I think this will happen

myrkul
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Activity: 532
Merit: 500
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 08:25:53 AM
#35
Quote from: mobodick on April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
On the contrary, it works just fine in the event of a surplus. Here's the way supply and demand works:
High demand, High supply, price stable and high.
High demand, Low supply, price increases until demand is met.
Low demand, High supply, price decreases until surplus is exhausted.
Low demand, Low supply, price stable and low.

If everyone is a manufacturer, then obviously the demand of manufactured goods would be low, perhaps the only manufactured good that would actually see trade would be the "printer." Instead, there would be a demand for raw materials, especially the rarer elements. Division of labor would likely hold out, but for fewer things. The economy might look something like this:
Energy producers --energy--> general populace --energy--> Matter producers
Energy producers <--matter-- general populace <--matter-- Matter producers
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 09, 2013, 05:38:33 AM
#34
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.

So my idea is that mechanisms like supply and demand only work in a situation where there is less supply than demand.
I kindof see it as a rubber band.
If you stretch it even a little you can transfer information over it.
If you don't put this potential in the system (you don't stretch it at all) you cannot make it transduce information in this way.
Same goes for economy. If there is not enough potential between 'have' and 'want' there won't be a clear path between them. The good will start flowing sidewards as the value of the good will become less relevant.
And i think this potential will become marginalized in the future up to the point that most needs can be fullfilled without the system we call economy.
myrkul
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
#33
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.
Now you're starting to talk sense. Matter ----> Matter is much easier to do than straight Energy ----> Matter. There would still be a need for matter, though, the raw building blocks to make things Some of this could be acquired from recycling, which would be orders of magnitude more efficient with nano-assemblers, but not all of it.
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 06:23:12 PM
#32
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
It's easy to acquire energy now. It's acquiring large amounts, in a usable form, that is, and always will be, a bit of a problem.
Nah, in a few decades you'll be able to capture more energy on your roof than you can reasonably use in the same amount of time.
If humanity has taught me anything over the years, it is that we are infinitely capable of pushing back the definition of "reasonable."

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
'Bit of a problem' is again a human notion. If you put a device to work then there will be no more problem, there will just be entropy.
We are rapidly approaching a time where the sunlight above your house will be enough to completely power your life.
That will make most people independent of power companies so our oil economy will have to change completely. Energy will become ubiquitous and very cheap.
Acquiring enough energy in usable form to live a normal life will not be a problem for most people in the future.
The other thing that is changing is production. In the future you will just have a device that can somehow transform energy into usable things like food or tools. The need for things like stores will decline because everyone will become their own producer.
But you're not going to power that with the sunlight hitting your roof. E=MC2. Do a quick napkin calculation and see if you can guess how much energy is required to synthesize one gram of matter. Now, how much energy hits the roof of a 100m2 house over the course of a day? How do those two numbers compare?
We don't use anywhere near the energy contained in mass. We use mass as an energy carrier but we don't touch the mass itself.
So we don't need to synthesize matter, altho i think it would be handy.
To start we would need some bulk mass that would need to be recycled.
And i can imagine matter re-synthesis. We could upgrade or downgrade useless but superfluous atoms and things like that.

Besides, the sun is not the only usefull energy source. e=mc^2 means matter itself is an energy source. I can't imagine this will not be a superfuous energy source in the future. How much mass would you need to make a sandwitch, that kind of thing.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
I was talking about stuff like bubble universes that completely destroy our enthropic situation.
We can eat our cake and have an unlimited amount of more cakes to chose from.
YMMV and some say there was no cake in the first place.
The cake is a lie.
It's actually more like "There is no spoon".

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Seriously, by the time we will be able to use even a small part of the sun we will already be in a society that has almost no resemblence to ours.
And to get to that point we have enough energy sources on earth.
Here, at least, we agree. We don't even rate on the Kardashev scale. And we're talking about a Type II society, or I leading to II.
I find his classification a bit arbitrary. I'm pretty sure we canot forsee the consequeces of the incredible scientific discoveries that no doubt will be made if we continue on this path. Maybe humanity will cease to exist after being type 1 because we gain the technology to link our brains into one super consciousness. Maybe we will enhance our biological form and continue on like cyborgs. Maybe the A.I.s will take over. Who knows.
I'm quite sure that from our perspective we cannot even start to imagine what is needed to orgaize a galactic civilization.
Light takes about 120000 years to cross the milky way so this makes such a civilization pretty impractical unless you have ways to travel much faster than light. But if you have that then i think you can create your own universe as well. So what does civilization even mean in those situations.
I think the cosmos is too weird for mister Kardashev.


Crypt_Current
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 04:43:09 PM
#31
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 12:12:12 PM

In short, yes, because "almost free" is not "free."

Supply and demand have always been about logistics. The finance is merely the grease that keeps the machine running smoothly.

And you're thinking very small-scale. In order to achieve the energy levels we're talking about, We'd need to control a significant portion of the energy output of the Sun. "World" is a very poor word choice.



Sure, i just want to say that the word free becomes more meaningless the easier it is to acquire energy.

It's easy to acquire energy now. It's acquiring large amounts, in a usable form, that is, and always will be, a bit of a problem.
Nah, in a few decades you'll be able to capture more energy on your roof than you can reasonably use in the same amount of time.
'Bit of a problem' is again a human notion. If you put a device to work then there will be no more problem, there will just be entropy.
We are rapidly approaching a time where the sunlight above your house will be enough to completely power your life.
That will make most people independent of power companies so our oil economy will have to change completely. Energy will become ubiquitous and very cheap.
Acquiring enough energy in usable form to live a normal life will not be a problem for most people in the future.
The other thing that is changing is production. In the future you will just have a device that can somehow transform energy into usable things like food or tools. The need for things like stores will decline because everyone will become their own producer.
That means that most people won't put a price on many things in the future. Most people will just have enough of everything to live their life to fullfillment. It may be even that the idea of monetary value disappears at some point. I don't think that the powers of supply and demand will play a big role. There will be increasingly less need for an economy to provide in needs. So economy will shrink in some ways.

On the other hand projects you refer to are so complex that they will likely occupy muliple generations before completion. Things will need to work very differently from our current short term clifhanger mentality to make that even remotely possible.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Supply and demand are driven by value in an economy.
As i said, we would have to rethink everything we call economy.
We could eat the cake and have it.
Not really. We could eat a very large slice of cake, and still have plenty left over, but that's not the same as eating the cake and having it too.
I was talking about stuff like bubble universes that completely destroy our enthropic situation.
We can eat our cake and have an unlimited amount of more cakes to chose from.
YMMV and some say there was no cake in the first place.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
So we will be stuck in the solar system for a now.
And here the only energy source is the sun.
But it gives off incredible amounts of energy, 3x10^31 J per day.
I cannot think of anything that would make our lives better that uses so much energy.
Then perhaps you simply don't have enough imagination. And even if it gives off that much energy, there's still the problem of catching it. To say nothing of transporting it, and putting it to use.
Ow i can imagine quite a lot. Doesn't mean i think just anything is realistic tho.
Seriously, by the time we will be able to use even a small part of the sun we will already be in a society that has almost no resemblence to ours.
And to get to that point we have enough energy sources on earth.


I DUNNO, ALL THAT SOUNDS WAYYYYY TOO OPTIMISTIC TO BE TRULY SCIENTIFIC
::: pushes up nose of glasses with index finger :::
 Roll Eyes
myrkul
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Activity: 532
Merit: 500
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
#30
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
It's easy to acquire energy now. It's acquiring large amounts, in a usable form, that is, and always will be, a bit of a problem.
Nah, in a few decades you'll be able to capture more energy on your roof than you can reasonably use in the same amount of time.
If humanity has taught me anything over the years, it is that we are infinitely capable of pushing back the definition of "reasonable."

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
'Bit of a problem' is again a human notion. If you put a device to work then there will be no more problem, there will just be entropy.
We are rapidly approaching a time where the sunlight above your house will be enough to completely power your life.
That will make most people independent of power companies so our oil economy will have to change completely. Energy will become ubiquitous and very cheap.
Acquiring enough energy in usable form to live a normal life will not be a problem for most people in the future.
The other thing that is changing is production. In the future you will just have a device that can somehow transform energy into usable things like food or tools. The need for things like stores will decline because everyone will become their own producer.
But you're not going to power that with the sunlight hitting your roof. E=MC2. Do a quick napkin calculation and see if you can guess how much energy is required to synthesize one gram of matter. Now, how much energy hits the roof of a 100m2 house over the course of a day? How do those two numbers compare?

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
I was talking about stuff like bubble universes that completely destroy our enthropic situation.
We can eat our cake and have an unlimited amount of more cakes to chose from.
YMMV and some say there was no cake in the first place.
The cake is a lie.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
Seriously, by the time we will be able to use even a small part of the sun we will already be in a society that has almost no resemblence to ours.
And to get to that point we have enough energy sources on earth.
Here, at least, we agree. We don't even rate on the Kardashev scale. And we're talking about a Type II society, or I leading to II.
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
#29
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 12:12:12 PM

In short, yes, because "almost free" is not "free."

Supply and demand have always been about logistics. The finance is merely the grease that keeps the machine running smoothly.

And you're thinking very small-scale. In order to achieve the energy levels we're talking about, We'd need to control a significant portion of the energy output of the Sun. "World" is a very poor word choice.



Sure, i just want to say that the word free becomes more meaningless the easier it is to acquire energy.

It's easy to acquire energy now. It's acquiring large amounts, in a usable form, that is, and always will be, a bit of a problem.
Nah, in a few decades you'll be able to capture more energy on your roof than you can reasonably use in the same amount of time.
'Bit of a problem' is again a human notion. If you put a device to work then there will be no more problem, there will just be entropy.
We are rapidly approaching a time where the sunlight above your house will be enough to completely power your life.
That will make most people independent of power companies so our oil economy will have to change completely. Energy will become ubiquitous and very cheap.
Acquiring enough energy in usable form to live a normal life will not be a problem for most people in the future.
The other thing that is changing is production. In the future you will just have a device that can somehow transform energy into usable things like food or tools. The need for things like stores will decline because everyone will become their own producer.
That means that most people won't put a price on many things in the future. Most people will just have enough of everything to live their life to fullfillment. It may be even that the idea of monetary value disappears at some point. I don't think that the powers of supply and demand will play a big role. There will be increasingly less need for an economy to provide in needs. So economy will shrink in some ways.

On the other hand projects you refer to are so complex that they will likely occupy muliple generations before completion. Things will need to work very differently from our current short term clifhanger mentality to make that even remotely possible.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Supply and demand are driven by value in an economy.
As i said, we would have to rethink everything we call economy.
We could eat the cake and have it.
Not really. We could eat a very large slice of cake, and still have plenty left over, but that's not the same as eating the cake and having it too.
I was talking about stuff like bubble universes that completely destroy our enthropic situation.
We can eat our cake and have an unlimited amount of more cakes to chose from.
YMMV and some say there was no cake in the first place.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
So we will be stuck in the solar system for a now.
And here the only energy source is the sun.
But it gives off incredible amounts of energy, 3x10^31 J per day.
I cannot think of anything that would make our lives better that uses so much energy.
Then perhaps you simply don't have enough imagination. And even if it gives off that much energy, there's still the problem of catching it. To say nothing of transporting it, and putting it to use.
Ow i can imagine quite a lot. Doesn't mean i think just anything is realistic tho.
Seriously, by the time we will be able to use even a small part of the sun we will already be in a society that has almost no resemblence to ours.
And to get to that point we have enough energy sources on earth.
myrkul
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Activity: 532
Merit: 500
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
#28
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 12:12:12 PM

In short, yes, because "almost free" is not "free."

Supply and demand have always been about logistics. The finance is merely the grease that keeps the machine running smoothly.

And you're thinking very small-scale. In order to achieve the energy levels we're talking about, We'd need to control a significant portion of the energy output of the Sun. "World" is a very poor word choice.



Sure, i just want to say that the word free becomes more meaningless the easier it is to acquire energy.
It's easy to acquire energy now. It's acquiring large amounts, in a usable form, that is, and always will be, a bit of a problem.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Supply and demand are driven by value in an economy.
As i said, we would have to rethink everything we call economy.
We could eat the cake and have it.
Not really. We could eat a very large slice of cake, and still have plenty left over, but that's not the same as eating the cake and having it too.

Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
So we will be stuck in the solar system for a now.
And here the only energy source is the sun.
But it gives off incredible amounts of energy, 3x10^31 J per day.
I cannot think of anything that would make our lives better that uses so much energy.
Then perhaps you simply don't have enough imagination. And even if it gives off that much energy, there's still the problem of catching it. To say nothing of transporting it, and putting it to use.
mobodick
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Activity: 840
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
#27
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 12:12:12 PM

In short, yes, because "almost free" is not "free."

Supply and demand have always been about logistics. The finance is merely the grease that keeps the machine running smoothly.

And you're thinking very small-scale. In order to achieve the energy levels we're talking about, We'd need to control a significant portion of the energy output of the Sun. "World" is a very poor word choice.



Sure, i just want to say that the word free becomes more meaningless the easier it is to acquire energy.

Supply and demand are driven by value in an economy.
As i said, we would have to rethink everything we call economy.
We could eat the cake and have it.

What i wrote above would be the pre-space situation.
In space we will have to deal with other things.
First of all, interstellar travel is not possible without superluminous speeds. If this was possible then we would have cracked the universe and energy would be indeed free.
But i assume that this kind of technology will take very very long to develop and by the time we solve that we will probably not be human anymore.
So we will be stuck in the solar system for a now.
And here the only energy source is the sun.
But it gives off incredible amounts of energy, 3x10^31 J per day.
I cannot think of anything that would make our lifes better that uses so much energy.
The only possible reason to think in those orders of magnitude of energy is to get to other stars. But then we will need superluminous crafts first or we won't get far.
There will be little use for all this energy for most people. Even if you take into acount the fact that our population grows, the logistics and the actual relative size of this are nothing compared to the amount of power the sun gives off. It would take a very very long time for us to reasonable be able to use some substantial portion of the suns output. By that time i fully expect us to have changed completely so i'm not sure any of our concepts would apply.

In the mean time for the most part people will somehow acquire a molecular assembler (you can use it to make more molecular assemblers) and feed it sun energy to become fully self sustaining energy wise.
myrkul
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Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 12:12:12 PM
#26
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 11:22:26 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 11:11:46 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.
And both are still finite. Finite means, in economic terms, scarce. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Cheap we can do. Free is not possible.

Free is such a relative term.
Once energy becomes ubiquitous things are valued differently.
The word free will be very much redefined in the future.
I'm pretty sure that energy will become rationed because it is not wise to have individuals play around with more power than the complete nuclear stock of the world.
So the economics will work differently. If there is any scarcity it will be artificial.
Then, if we expand into space we get to play with the big stuff but by then there will be very little limits for us humans. Hopefully we will not destroy our universe...

The limiting factor of, we'll call it... an "energy economy," is the rate at which it can be generated/collected. This, too will always be a finite number, and if human history holds out, smaller than demand. Would such an economy's poorest members have astronomically better lives than the richest of today? Undoubtedly, but "free" is not the same as "really, really cheap."

As i said, we will reach a top of consumption where we will have more energy available than is healthy for us. We will have very serious reasons to cap our usage is some ways and in any case our whole world would be transformed. Mechanisms like supply and demand will become more a question of logistics than of finance.
The more energy we would have available the less we would care about its value.
Would the word economy still have a real meaning when energy is almost free to get?
In short, yes, because "almost free" is not "free."

Supply and demand have always been about logistics. The finance is merely the grease that keeps the machine running smoothly.

And you're thinking very small-scale. In order to achieve the energy levels we're talking about, We'd need to control a significant portion of the energy output of the Sun. "World" is a very poor word choice.

mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 12:02:27 PM
#25
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 11:22:26 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 11:11:46 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.
And both are still finite. Finite means, in economic terms, scarce. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Cheap we can do. Free is not possible.

Free is such a relative term.
Once energy becomes ubiquitous things are valued differently.
The word free will be very much redefined in the future.
I'm pretty sure that energy will become rationed because it is not wise to have individuals play around with more power than the complete nuclear stock of the world.
So the economics will work differently. If there is any scarcity it will be artificial.
Then, if we expand into space we get to play with the big stuff but by then there will be very little limits for us humans. Hopefully we will not destroy our universe...

The limiting factor of, we'll call it... an "energy economy," is the rate at which it can be generated/collected. This, too will always be a finite number, and if human history holds out, smaller than demand. Would such an economy's poorest members have astronomically better lives than the richest of today? Undoubtedly, but "free" is not the same as "really, really cheap."

As i said, we will reach a top of consumption where we will have more energy available than is healthy for us. We will have very serious reasons to cap our usage is some ways and in any case our whole world would be transformed. Mechanisms like supply and demand will become more a question of logistics than of finance.
The more energy we would have available the less we would care about its value.
Would the word economy still have a real meaning when energy is almost free to get?
myrkul
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 11:22:26 AM
#24
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 11:11:46 AM
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.
And both are still finite. Finite means, in economic terms, scarce. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Cheap we can do. Free is not possible.

Free is such a relative term.
Once energy becomes ubiquitous things are valued differently.
The word free will be very much redefined in the future.
I'm pretty sure that energy will become rationed because it is not wise to have individuals play around with more power than the complete nuclear stock of the world.
So the economics will work differently. If there is any scarcity it will be artificial.
Then, if we expand into space we get to play with the big stuff but by then there will be very little limits for us humans. Hopefully we will not destroy our universe...

The limiting factor of, we'll call it... an "energy economy," is the rate at which it can be generated/collected. This, too will always be a finite number, and if human history holds out, smaller than demand. Would such an economy's poorest members have astronomically better lives than the richest of today? Undoubtedly, but "free" is not the same as "really, really cheap."
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 11:11:46 AM
#23
Quote from: myrkul on April 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.
And both are still finite. Finite means, in economic terms, scarce. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Cheap we can do. Free is not possible.

Free is such a relative term.
Once energy becomes ubiquitous things are valued differently.
The word free will be very much redefined in the future.
I'm pretty sure that energy will become rationed because it is not wise to have individuals play around with more power than the complete nuclear stock of the world.
So the economics will work differently. If there is any scarcity it will be artificial.
Then, if we expand into space we get to play with the big stuff but by then there will be very little limits for us humans. Hopefully we will not destroy our universe...
myrkul
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 10:43:21 AM
#22
Quote from: mobodick on April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.
And both are still finite. Finite means, in economic terms, scarce. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Cheap we can do. Free is not possible.
mobodick
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Re: This is what some of you actually believe.
April 08, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
#21
Quote from: NamelessOne on April 08, 2013, 06:10:59 AM
Quote from: ManBearPig on April 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
But seriously, Kurzweil's singularity will simply never happen - there is ALWAYS a bottleneck somewhere inside or outside of the system.

I do like the idea of living your life at the speed of light though, essentially immortal until you log out.

Will money matter if we see the singularity?

Money won't mean the same thing. If we all became machines the only thing that would matter would really be raw matter and the ability to control it so we can use it for processing power. A post scarcity economy would probably be prevented because of this. But it essentially would be damn near post scarcity because if everyone are machines or at least enhanced, extreme education, communication, merged consciousness all come to the table and completely change the human experience.

Raw matter is only an energy storage configuration.

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