Topic: Thoughts on religion for a Sunday morning (Read 3189 times)

Yes, I agree that people need to be educated well, to understand the religion topics, need intellectual deep thoughts. There is a lot of lesson to be learned from the creation of the Whole Universe, such as how the planets are standing without any support and they look like as a round ball which floats in the air.

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Religions and the whole idea of God was to aid humans in need with hope and belief. If religion is used as an excuse to kill people and seek control, that isn't religion anymore. That's a bunch of sick twats with a twisted dick up their brain.

Religeons were made for people. People were not made for religeons. You see these things have to be kept limited to maintaining harmony. Not to building loosers who look out for sympathy.

Actions in the world do not need to be rational - it's possible to cook a meal following a 1000 year old recipe that is perfectly nutritious, even though it was devised by someone who had no knowledge of biochemistry. In fact the recipe had been tested by time (and evolution) and had proven itself to increase the survival of the those who ate it.

Religion is just a bunch of recipes for survival - it is tested by evolution and works in reality as it is, rather than a reality scientifically modeled.

Reality that is scientifically modeled may prove itself to increase survival, but since the individual is ignored by the model (ie the model doesn't tell them how to live day to day), people my be inclined to ignore it and prefer to find a system that allows them to justify what it is they actually do with their lives.

Science ignores what we do as individuals.
Science tells us that we are irreverent specs of dust in a meaningless universe - that our sense of self is just a genetic innovation that improves our chance of survival so we can pass on our genes.

Ironically, believing this may not increase our chance of survival (which is all that 'matters' to our genes) - hence religion continues to survive

I was going to go the other way, and say that maybe atheists do understand that in the end God and them will be the same thing, they just don't believe in the power of their own minds.

Nobody gets to have it all in life. We all make our deals one way or another. I just think that in the context of living one's life absolutely in the knowledge that one is part of a greater whole, there is a bit less bleakness than that of living a life absolutely in the knowledge, as opposed to occasional speculation otherwise, that it matters, no matter how much one enjoys it while on earth, ultimately not a whit in this universe.

There is a true gem in the movie Troy, where Achilles mother tells him he has two futures: one in which he is loved during his life, and passes on to weeping and fond memories of his progeny, in which his grandsons remember him dimly, but still hold him in respect and honor, and then, after that...pfffft. That's about it. OR, he can go to Troy, be killed, and be remembered forever.

That's the split between living one's life in the intellect, and living it in the emotion.

Here's a thought. Why are you so obsessed with the religion of others?
Unless they are infringing on my inalienable rights I could care less what they worship.
That said, you certainly can't compare Christianity and all has done for people to Islam. And don't bother going back a thousand years to make some useless comparison.

As I've pretty steadily maintained, I consider myself an atheist with hopes of some form of dualistic universe.

That said, when I read a lot of non-religious persons, I get a real dog in the manger sense from them: "I can't profit from faith, so I'll be damned if I'll grant you the right to do so: I'll tear it down every chance, every instance I get, I'll characterize those who possess faith as being weak in mind and weak in soul, unable to face life with a man in the sky blah blah blah. I'll find the easiest things to poke holes in, evolution or the age of the earth, and use them to claim that if you don't agree with science you must be a cretin unworthy of being listened to on any subject." I know that when I get frustrated even I am tempted, and probably do sometimes, go that route.

But I really do think that there is a case to be made that the life of an atheist has to be fundamentally bleaker than that of a true possessor of faith, if by bleak we mean less rich in an emotional context.

To me, it is another of life's deals. None of us get to have it all. One of the things we don't get is to experience is BOTH the fullness of our intellectual capacity AND the potential fullness of our emotional capacity, because one MUST be suppressed in order to concentrate on the other. I don't like the term "emotional" that I'm using because I'm not quite hitting it, if something other than that comes to mind I'll substitute, but for now, it takes an emotional mind to a certain extent to suspend belief in the mechanical laws of the universe in order to posit a sentience arising above and beyond those mechanical laws.

Those of us who cast our lot in with the intellect are going to always see the possibility of a dualistic universe of some sort, but we are not living in a dualistic universe, one in which our lives matter more than just being our lives, our short time on earth. We have already cast our lot: we believe in the intellect. We try to slice and dice it way by talking vaguely of some essentially meaningless force in our lives, but we don't fool ourselves at heart: we believe in nothing.

But a person of faith is actually living in that dualistic universe, where their lives have an intrinsic meaning that goes beyond them.

That is not to dismiss that you can't be happy in this life, but rather that you entirely miss the experience of hope which expands it.  You can't possibly say that you don't need that or that it has no value  because you can't know what you are missing. While a person of faith can intellectualize the experience of atheism, an atheist cannot sufficiently intellectualize what is authentic spiritual experience.  It is akin to talking about being in love versus actually being in love.  I've no doubt one can live a happy life without ever being in love, but who would want to do so once they hold the experience of actually being in love?   

There is nothing more sickening than religious people telling nonbelievers our lives must be bleak in comparison.  Typical religious superiority complex.

"If you don't follow our faith, you cant possibly know my kind of happiness you poor bleak wretched creature."

When I hear that message, which was pretty loud and clear in here, I want to throw up.

In fairness and in support of our secular laws, since I think people who follow any organized religion are fools and idiots, it is simply equal time if they want to call my life bleak.

Agree and agree!   I just re-read Vernor Vinge's  recently and it was even better with more life experience behind me.  What's funny, to me anyway, is that I love all CS Lewis' works except the Narnia series.

A pitcher can come new to the leagues, sk, and throw 100 miles an hour. And he can still be beat, and often is, by an older pitcher who knows the tools of his trade. Raw power is not a substitute for refined and sober pitching skills, and being smart is not the same thing as being wise. C'mon, tell me you don't look back on your younger years and smile at the you you were then. I sure do.

It's called growing up.

I cannot help but read your words,  and find in them a little of, "methinks he doth protest too much".

I will be tacky at this point  to quote James, "The Varieties of Religious Experience" and your own worldview in the following, er, vein. It is said that circumcised guys are less sensitive than non-circumcised guys (based on the number of receptors in the foreskin blah blah blah). But you know what? No circumcised guy for life is ever going to know yea or nay and no uncircumcised guy, unless stupid enough to undergo the procedure at some late stage, will know either. There are some divides that imagination in the abstract cannot cross, circumcision and religious experience, no matter how tacky the comparison, are alike in that respect. ;-)

(If you've never read that guy, do yourself a favor and do so; for an easy entrance, I recommend Surprised by Joy).

Better yet, The Screwtape Letters. A really enjoyable way to approach the subject IMIV. Lewis was one of a generation of post WWI writers, of the "Lost Generation", he, CP Snow and others, who were alienated from their lifestyle (before Chantal Delsol) and sought to return to Christianity, but in a more intellectual approach, Fabian Christianity if you will. Tolkien was also in that vein, but in an extremely, extremely restrained fashion, as when Gandalf says to Frodo by way of comfort someting akin to "This is not all there is, there is a reason, a plan, and an understanding behind why this all is happening."


Anyway, because I have never once observed even a scintilla of evidence for the existence of anything but that which physically exists, I am, as I have already said, a pretty simple atheist.

I will, um, pass on that statement, which I find passing strange coming from someone as smart as thee.

 I also have no problem with becoming worm poop, the prospect of which has never once made me feel hopeless... But no more "hopeless" now than then.


But I don't think that hope refers specifically to our individual continuance, rather to a teleology behind the universe that we are desirous of knowing exists. What makes atheism so pale and grey is that there is no purpose to anything if there is no dualistic universe, it's just a mechanical marvel, that's all, and all the joy you took in your celebration of your mom above is nothing but matrix programming.

I remember that back when I felt persuaded to consider the possibility of the existence of a higher power, whether it was the Holy Trinity of my childhood or the Guiding Oneness -- whatever that means -- of my agnostic stage, I didn't feel any day-to-day difference from how I feel now. I was still quite displeased, for example, about the party continuing without me. I still am -- I mean, who wants to miss a good party? Envious? Yup. Angry? A little (less so as I age, because, well -- life).

 
I remember reading Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, just a SUPERB scifi novel, and feeling so incredibly bitter when I put it down that I was never going to see not so much necessarily the particular universe he created, but rather the concept of a universe essentially ordered by man and other species that he laid out. As a historian, to me, life is like reading a great history, but knowing that I'm never going to get to see the fucking end of the story. Very, very, very, very irritating. C'mon, I linked it to the ebook edition, anyone who has any fucking imagination whatsoever (guys anyway) should read that book.

Finally, I'm sorry, it would irritate the fuck out of me if the atheists are right, because it would just make all of human history and human sentience nothing but a sick joke of nature that were better ended at the earliest possibility, rather than dragging out a species doomed to self-destruction till it takes the world down with it.

You have no case as I am right that you have no experience that parallels mine.  I don't care if you think that is arrogant, it isn't any less true.  And I don't care if you think it is arrogant to say you don't even know what you don't know, it also isn't any less true.

 Religion and an awe in something bigger than us are two completely different things.  I  understand religion and its human evolution just fine. I also don't understand a higher power just as much as you have no clue about any, if it exists.  So I am capable of understanding just fine.  I have had every bit as deep and emotional inspirational mind blowing experiences that you have (Im being generous, lets face it...I've had a lot more).  While I don't know what your personal religious feelings are and I don't care, I know that you have likely been moved very deeply, as just about every human on earth is capable regardless of their beliefs.  You are not special because you believe one way and I believe another.  You have no dibs on powerful feelings of existence and the absence of bleakness.

1) Being ignorant of my beliefs in their entirety, or the totality of my reasoning, you are not. 

2) Your "demonstration" of my "error" is a non sequitur as I already stated.

3) What you said was this:  you just cant really "reason" your way there with any earthly logic. What I replied was this:  I never claimed one could reason their way to God using only earthly logic.  I most definitely made it clear it is ultimately a faith view, but then so is yours.  But what I have been arguing, which you seem to be incapable of grasping, that spirituality is also experiential.  Do you understand the difference between logic and experience?  And that one may be both logical in their reasoning AND have experiences that can't be explained solely by logic? 


You have no point, but then you never do.

And you are wrong about a number of things in your line of "reasoning"....we don't know if matter popped into existence or was just going through a big crunch.  And, once in existence....all things don't happen randomly.  -snip-  This is not to say a bearded man didn't create matter just to watch it expand and crunch for all eternity....you just cant really "reason" your way there with any earthly logic.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/death-takes-no-holiday/

... The truth is that I have been waiting to die for quite some while now. I do not wish to die, certainly not until, as Socrates says, “life has no more to offer.” I’ve not found that life has anywhere near run out of delight for me. I’ve never considered suicide, though I have, at different times, out of spiritual fatigue, thought I would welcome death. “All is finite,” wrote Santayana, “all is to end, all is bearable—that is my only comfort.”

Yet, though, contra Dylan Thomas, I hope to be allowed to go gently into that good night, I do not figure to welcome death when it arrives. Like everyone else, I take blood tests with my annual physical, and each year I expect the results to be disastrous, showing I have three different cancers, Parkinson’s, incipient Lou Gehrig’s, and what looks like Alzheimer’s well on its way. I am waiting, in other words, for both shoes to fall.

When they do, I shall not be shocked or even surprised, but disappointed nonetheless. I have had a good and lucky run, having been born to honorable and intelligent parents in the most interesting country in the world during a period of unrivaled prosperity and vast technological advance. I prefer to think I’ve got the best out of my ability, and have been properly appreciated for what I’ve managed to accomplish. One may regard one’s death as a tragic event, or view it as the ineluctable conclusion to the great good fortune of having been born to begin with. I’m going with the latter.

Unless the Dirty Tricks Department, which is always very active, gets to me, and makes my final years, months, days on Earth a hell of pain and undignified suffering, I shall regret my departure from life. On his deathbed, Goethe’s last words are said to have been, “More light, more light.” Gertrude Stein, on hers, asked, “What is the answer?” and when no one replied, laughed and asked, “Then what is the question?” I don’t have a final draft of my own deathbed words, but I do have a theme, which is unembarrassed thanksgiving

You are in no position to judge my reasoning as you are not informed as to what either my belief or my reasoning about it is.  Dismissing that of which you are ignorant neither makes what I believe a "fairy tale", nor is that a logical or reasoned response on your part.  Furthermore, what I have been pointing out is that spirituality is experiential in addition to being intellectual.  As is your habit, you focus on the tree I'm not even discussing while missing the forrest.  Correction noted, but it is a non sequitur.  I never claimed one could reason their way to God using only earthly logic.  I am, in fact, stating you cannot.  But neither can you support your POV without faith either.  Well no, actually it wouldn't.  You can only describe your perspective from the outside about something which you cannot know having not experienced it.  And from the way you write, it doesn't appear you've spent much time on religious philosophy studies either.  Well, I'm glad you feel that way about what you've chosen to belief and put your faith in, but I don't.  I can compare the two as per my own experience...you cannot.

I'm sorry if you found my "being in love" analogy tedious...but I still think it is a fitting one.  And the reason I can make statements about atheism is because, as you have frequently pointed out, it is an intellectual exercise of which I'm perfectly capable of thinking through (and have).   My entire point was spiritual experiences...just like falling in love...are not solely an intellectual exercise.  And for the record, I'm speaking in the context of theism, not Christianity. For now. And that is somewhat meaningless, not to mention it isn't true worldwide compared to theism.   You are mistaken.  I don't value atheism as much as I do theism, but I'm not expressing "disgust".   As for you experiencing me being condescending, well, first of all you hardly have room to talk on that score.  But I'm not going to apologize for believing my views are superior because if I didn't, I wouldn't hold them.   But I'm not trying to proselytize or convince anyone to change their mind...just sharing what I think.  

When it comes to happiness I will take atheism happiness any day over what the theists call happiness. Theist joy is all about fearing God and giving in to his will.... while ours is all about being free of the chains of superstition.