Topic: Thoughts on religion for a Sunday morning - page 3. (Read 3179 times)

To argue that religion is easier...as if that is evidence of its inferiority and all the more reason a higher intellect would seek to dismiss it...is laughably illogical.    Why would the more intelligent animals seek a harsher, less safe, more difficult reality which ends in annihilation, making your entire existence nothing more than a blink of irrelevancy, and then turn around and claim it is a superior faith based POV because you've really thought it through?  Lol.  Have you really? 
I will tell you why atheism will always be a minority view.  Because theism is the only measure of hope one can find when they are in the position of being effectively oppressed by other human beings exploiting their superior might, which for all our supposed intelligence we still haven't figured out how to stop doing.   And you are deluding yourself if you believe the godless are any better at not reeking mayhem than religious zealots because they are every bit as zealous in their self worship.

For the record I did not admit [all] religion was superstition.   What I did state was that your belief is also faith based.  And I do not think I am wrong in my concept of atheism, at least not in terms of anything you've argued.    
I can agree atheism appeals those who value the empirical above all else.   But philosophy, which involves more than the empirical, is also based on logic and truth seeking.   Personally I would argue it takes a higher intellect to be a philosopher than it takes to be a scientist.  And I say that as someone with a math degree who firmly believes math is the only true science (suck it physics).  
And I think you missed the point of the my argument/analogy:  If someone has never been in love, they cannot comment on what it is like or what it is worth in the same way as someone who has/is.  You (generic you) simply cannot know the full value of that experience which transcends the intellectual until you've had it.   One can use logic and science to reduce that experience down to the level of chemicals, but one cannot expect to convince someone who is in love that that they are superstitious and inferior intellectually for believing love exists and makes life more wonderful when they are experiencing it and you are not.  
And while someone may have been in love or thought they have been in love at one time, and for whatever reason is no longer in love, they can only argue they find greater benefit living with the belief that it is nothing more than a chemical cocktail within those destined to be worm poop.  But that kind of statement generally is received with pity from those who are in love.

You make a lot of presumptions in your comments above which I don't have the time to dispute one at a time. I will say your entire concept of what "atheism" is all about is completely wrong. Atheism is a celebration of the logical over the illogical. There is no logic in superstition which you admit religion is. I have had experience with both theism and atheism as I have been both a Christian and an atheist. Believe me....of the two.... being an Christian is much easier. Its safe, comfortable and can be wrapped around you like a warm, protective coat. Being an atheist means you have to leave the matrix and except some harsh realities. We are animals, all animals die and that's the end of it. No eternal life, no soul, no heaven or hell. No God.

That's not easy to swallow.

Some people need the truth. They simply are not fit for the matrix. Just like some need drugs to cope with reality and others prefer reality over fantasy. There is no "hopelessness" in being an atheist. It is not dark or bleak. There is no alienation, pessimism or gloomy desperation as some claim. There is strength in being able to live with what is real. There is a sense that life is precious and this is our only chance to do a good job as we won't be here again. It makes me a better mother to my children and a better wife to my husband. Atheism has given me many gifts, the greatest is freedom from superstition and unlocking my intellectual possibilities.

Thanks for something interesting to respond to........

Actually that is called reason, not superstition.  Either the enormity of the cosmos  or a majestic view present such overwhelming order, design, and complexity that to believe that randomly came to be after matter popped into existence would be illogical, or at the very least it is illogical to entirely dismiss the supernatural.  Even prevailing views of origin cannot completely answer all associated questions, nor do they refute the existence of the supernatural.  You simply hold another faith based possibility which excludes an intelligent designer.  

Why when someone sees a beautiful view do they claim "Look how beautiful that is. Only God could have created that. It is proof of his existence". Actually its proof of no such thing. It is what happens because of time, weather, nature and natural elements in harmony. Its not due to anything superstitious. It is the beauty of reality.

Try to put yourself in the place of primitive, Middle eastern nomads 4000+ years ago.  Sitting at night tending your flock, lying back, staring at the majesty of the night sky.

Wouldn't it make you wonder?  Would you have made up magical beings or a magical being that created it all?

Well, that's what happened.  Not you of course, you probably don't have the imagination any way.

Men never do evil so completely or so joyfully than when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal.

I sincerely believe religion has nothing to do with God. In my mind to combine the two is both bizarre and ridiculous. Religions are an attempt by early groups of people to understand what they saw around them. What they decided on was usually nonsensical because they were uneducated and often desperate for answers. The quest for God is a more noble effort and can manifest itself in many varied and interesting ways. The first is wallowing in fear, uncertainty and superstition. The second can be a sincere search for truth.

Came across a wonderful quote the other day:


...and that is the most constructive thing I have to add to this debate.

I beg to differ, my higher power, that you choose to designate as 'God', provides the rules and morals. It is up to me to listen and do the right thing. I haven't made any of my own rules, I am guided by a power greater than any of us.

Sorry, I made an assumption, you sounded kind of Catholic and you are Puerto Rican so I thought......

lol. No, I'm not, because as I've noted a thousand times, Catholics have no more answer to the theodetic question than do Protestants.

My rules are in my heart, mind and soul.

which is exactly what I said, sana thanks. And I believe that making your own rules is taking, no pun intended, the way out.

I find this higher power is inconceivable, and you are a Catholic and have named this power God and given it a set of tools, rules and garments I suppose so it is easier for you to accept. Yet I am certain this inconceivable power exists, I'm just not buying the man made rules. My rules are in my heart, mind and soul. This power resides in all of us, in everything in the universe............all connected.

Some make the connection, others live in denial, some just ignorant. You get your moral code from the Bible? Good luck with that.........

This power in the universe is much greater than I, I am powerless in comparison. but with an open mind I can see and I can hear..........

I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words.
and I believe that, like Protestantism, that is a cop out from not having to adhere to a moral code, you get to decide whether your actions are good or not.

Yup. Doesn't surprise me a bit. How dumb, after all, do you have to be to believe that God determined your life before the creation of the universe, yet you are responsible for your actions on earth. Or that god damned you before all creation, because, well, just because he felt like it. And how dumb do you have to be to think that "where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the universe" is a legitimate response to Job's question, "why did you kill my wife and kids, burn down my house and fields and slaughter my livestock?"

The reality is that Protestantism comes solely from emotion: not thought. Catholicism and Judaism come first from intellect. The closest thing we have to Protestantism is, well, Islam. No wonder why they hate each other so much: isn't it said we hate others most for the bad traits we see in them that we know reflect our own souls?

And doesn't the negative correlation explain pretty well why of the nine on SCOTUS, five are Catholic and two are Jewish?

And isn't the general ignorance and hatred of others that makes up most Protestant sects best reflected on this board with the members of the SBC like Sting? Everything that is wrong with religion, hell, everything wrong with the world, is brought to the fore in the SBC.

My vote is that we match one Protestant with one Muslim each, and let them kill each other. I PROMISE the world will be a far superior place thereafter.

"Zuckerman also warns that, despite there being thousands of participants overall, ranging among all ages, almost all of them belong to Western society. More than 87 percent of the participants were from the US, the UK, and Canada. So after controlling for other factors, they can only confidently show strong negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity among American Protestants. For Catholicism and Judaism, the correlation may be less negative. "     Martin Luther

I was blind and could not see.  I was deaf and could not hear.  Thinking people do not throw away their logic, their logic expands to encompass the unexplainable.  The Bible was written by man.  The Bible is not sacred.  But it points to a very good way to live.  It speaks of the wonder of faith in god.

I just want to add this......... I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words. Anybody can talk a good game. As the Dalai Lama once said, "I have one religion....... 'kindness' ". Sincere kindness is a deep word, it covers all the altruistic things you mention and more. Sincerity is key as well. This can be attributed to all religions I'm aware of. 

The key seems to be either a belief that there is something greater than ourselves in this universe or there is not. I have come to believe that there definitely is, I just don't believe this inconceivable power is a god. But I don't have any problem calling it God. What this power is will be conceived differently by each one of us. 

Personally, I don't fear or praise it, I embrace it and I realize it is much more powerful than any of us. Then it becomes what is your definition of power in this realm............

That's actually kind of interesting, POTP.  As I was looking for that study, I came across a meta analysis of the negative correlation between intelligence and religion.  The conclusions are not as simple as "dumb = religious", but rather (paraphrasing here) that there are two levels of intelligence, the lower finding instinctive affinity to a belief in God and children especially.  The higher level finds affinity with analytical thinking which leads those who rely on the empirical.  It also detailed four possible reasons why the higher level have less motivation to seek the non empirical benefits of faith/religion.

I would never argue with the proposition that religious belief is part of human nature. As a child, I was indoctrinated into the beliefs of my tribe (working-class Roman Catholicism of the 1950s and '60s), but I took to it like a duck to water, so I know what a natural fit it can feel like.

I'm not sure if this is the same study I referenced, but if not, here's another:

London (CNN) – Religion comes naturally, even instinctively, to human beings, a massive new study of cultures all around the world suggests.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/