Topic: Thread re opened due to buyer accusing me of shipping an empty package. - page 2. (Read 1906 times)

Thanks for the objective point of view. As an escrow yourself if this was a deal you held the funds for, how would you deal with t?

Have you ever made a claim against a courier? 1st thing they ask... was the package signed for as damaged.

If a courier handed me a package and it was paper weight and I was expecting a metal bar I would refuse to sign for it and RTS.. end of.. nothing else to say here

Objective assessment; there were a few mistakes with this transaction:
1) Tman failed to notice that this account woke up from a long period inactivity which makes it probable that it is no longer in the possession of the original owner.
2) Escrow was not used for a trade with an unknown member (even though that may not have necessarily prevented anything if a party is lying).
3) The story of the random member is already starting to become inconsistent and the time-delay makes this very suspicious.
4) Tman did not enact adequate measures in order to avoid situations like these (*).

* - This statement may be false depending on what is shown with this:

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It may be possible that it was indeed stolen in transit, even though this is very unlikely. Proving that it was indeed stolen is rather non-trivial.

Id slow it on calling the buyer a liar and such as well. It could be the scenario that the seller did ship it and that it were stolen in transit somehow. In that case it falls on the buyer to submit a claim to TNT for insurance.

Travelling isn't far fetched either, I work a two week on, one week off schedule and am often away. My more expensive items I have shipped somewhere where I know they'll be signed for for me.. sometimes if a coin gets held up in customs and arrives my first day gone it could be two weeks before I open it. Mind you I receive pictures and get the person to open it for me so I can release escrow promptly.

All I'm saying here is both buyer and seller could be telling the truth. It would be nice to hear from an escrow such as minerjones / ognasty / blazed as to how they would approach this situation if escrow were used. I believe emotion plays a lot with some of the replies here, these escrow services play a complete unbiased opinion when it comes down to proof and ultimate decision.

Always use escrow kids. No matter how much trust you have in a seller. You may trust the seller but you can't trust the shipping company to act in good faith.

Thanks for the kind words guys. But this isn't about rep, this is about outing people who try to scam. I have the proof that backs up me sending the item.. we need to flush out scammers who try to pull a fast one as the next seller may be caught out not having the full evidence needed.

I believe I also have pictures of the packaging stages but I cannot be 100% sure as this was a few weeks ago before I emigrated. I will check tomorrow when I have unboxed the pc that has my pictures backed up on.

Lol. 


Same here though.  I have traded back and forth with Tman for a sum likely greater than 10 BTC.  This included an envelope with 2 kialara Labyrinths I won in an auction such as this one.  The envelope arrived safe and with the 2 kialara's I ordered.  I highly doubt Tman would scam anyone at all, let alone for such a small amount of BTC. 

Thanks squall. That made me laugh

sorry to hear this.

to everyone, I have traded thousands of GPB to TMAN in the past, I would trust him to drive my mum to the hospital whilst intoxicated!

Yea I have the AWB... but I wanted the community to comment before I posted it as I know the buyer is lying.

If there is proof of a shipping weight associated with the package I would advise sharing that.  It should be 4oz or more and an empty package will be 3oz or less.

Doubtful that'll come to a satisfying resolution for anyone.  I get the feeling someone isn't telling the truth here, and somehow I don't think it's TMAN.  Could be wrong,  and I don't want to start pointing fingers because it's just a hunch.  Too bad there doesn't seem to be a way of proving what went wrong.  TMAN doesn't have a history of scamming and this doesn't seem like it would be exactly a lucrative enoughdeal to start scamming with, were he even inclined to do so.

I can't as it is 2 weeks after it was signed for. TNT will laugh at me.. especially as the package was not signed for as damaged or open or empty.. really who would open a Jiffy bag that feels empty when you are expecting a metal bar??? Even more so why wait 2 weeks??

In PM he mentions traveling yet above no mention of that being the cause of the delay

If insurance was paid for file a claim with the shipping agent and let them sort it out? I do have a hard time believing TMAN would risk his hard earned trust rating over a few hundred dollars. No offense but that is the way I see it.

I took a video when I was opening a package from ironmarvel (I think) I paid about 0.47 btc or so in December. So I don't see how taking pictures of it before you open it is that far fetched. But there should be a shipping info with the weight to prove the auction winner is lying

No mention of the travelling?? The picture you sent is not perfect but I can see that the package was sliced open. Yet when you  sent me the PM you stated that the picture was taken before you opened the package..

I have shipped items worth more than 30x this package and not had my integrity questioned. I own one of the top 5 largest collections of kialara's in the world. Why would I scam someone over such a petty amount?

I am the buyer in this situation.  

I sent the bitcoin for the Kialara after some positive exchanges with TMAN regarding this and other pieces.  He has a good trust score and was very responsive and I got a good vibe, and so I (lazily perhaps) opted to just send him the BTC for the item when I won, with no escrow.

All seemed to be going well and he provided a tracking number, and I paid to have it insured.

When I got the package, it was obviously empty AND SEALED.   Seller is saying that it is "sliced open" but it was not.  Maybe he's seeing some sort of fold in the tape from the picture, but it was literally just a sealed, empty envelope.

As soon as I picked it up my immediate thought was "dammit, I should have escrowed."  

Second thought:  "I know I got a real steal of a price on that auction, I guess he wasn't inclined to part with it for such a low price."

Third thought was:  "how can I ever "prove" that in fact it was an empty envelope when he first sent it?  When I contact the seller, he'll just say that it was stolen by some unknown person somewhere along the line.   He'll have proof that he sent the envelope and it will be his word against mine as to whether the item was ever actually in there or not.  He cleverly did this in a way that makes it almost impossible for me to get my BTC back."

Frankly, I despaired and figured I was just out the BTC, caveat emptor.  It wasn't a ton of money so I wasn't devastated, and my inclination was to just learn my lesson and move on.   I was also very busy with personal life issues, so I put it on the backburner  

As I kept thinking about it, I figured it was at least worth reaching out TMAN to ask why he would feel the need to stiff me.   So I messaged him yesterday about it.

He denied it and asked for pictures, which I sent.  He claimed that the pictures show that the envelope was sliced, but it was not.  It was a sealed envelope.  Unless someone was thoughtful enough to re-tape it shut after robbing it, the item just wasn't in there in the first place.

I will say that I am heartened that the seller volunteered to reopen this thread and basically throw this out to the community for judgement.  That shows a certain amount of good-will and I am hopeful that he will make this right.  

All I know is that I sent the BTC for the Kialara and received an empty, sealed envelope in return.  Just because I delayed in messaging him about it and didn't immediately start rampaging and complaining and down-voting him doesn't change that fact.  Also, just because I have been quiet on the forum for three years doesn't make me a liar either.  I got burned hard on the Activeminer scam and lost a small fortune, so I haven't been on here much at all since then.

Thank you

You're welcome, glad I could point it out and you were able to correct it quickly.  

seems provably true/false with the weight of package.(thank god Kialara's weigh as much as they do). Im not sure if it is the same in the UK as it is in Canada but when i send a parcel or package they weigh it and that adds to the cost of me sending the package. it should be included somewhere on the shipping receipt. (buyer did not claim anything inside as to fake the weight of the package, empty vs a kialara would be easily proven)

Looking at this from an escrow point of view, the proof needs to be given from both sides to the best of their ability to win any dispute. This proof does not include things such as community favorites or activity on a forum, its things such as receipts/pictures.

cheers digi - sorry didn't double check that..

This is a very strange case but the blame should clearly not land on you for some of these reasons:

1. Why did the user Sign for picking up the package 2 weeks ago and wait until yesterday/today to contact you.
2. Why did the user take the pictures before opening just to realize that it was empty? (Seems a bit suspicious)
3. If the reason behind #2 is that he thought the package was empty then why not contact you with the package intact and perhaps send it back, intact?
4. Why would you TMAN need to send one empty package to gain a few hundred dollars? I've seen you make deals for several thousands of dollars and both parties involved have always walked away happy.
5. This user has clearly not been involved too much considering the 3 year gap between posts as you mentioned. This does not bring a lot of trust since the account could have been purchased just to do something like this.

To me this is a pretty open and shut case and the user can try somewhere else.