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Topic: Time to Boycott all US Companies - page 2. (Read 9202 times)

hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
November 14, 2013, 08:19:17 AM
#52
Did people seriously think BTC was going to 'go main stream' while still completely flouting AML/KYC regulations?  Libertarian fantasies do not a viable currency make, if you want BTC to remain an underground thing then by all means keep existing in a legal grey area, but don't expect everyone on the planet to be using it 5 years from now.

KYC and AML are necessary. Bank secrecy enables corruption.
I don't understand how we can have a Bitcoin community which supports the goal of Wikileaks on one hand but on the other hand wants to have completely anonymous money.

You cannot have both. If you want to fight institutional corruption you have to follow the money. If you want anonymous money then you have to accept institutional corruption as the end result.

If there are bad actors then those bad actors should be investigated. That does not mean we should all be forced to get digital ID cards to access our money. A digital signature ought to be enough to prove your identity. There is no reason to have a centralized database.

It could work just fine if the digital signature could be somehow be connected to the Bitcoin blockchain itself.

What if for instance I want to validate that my coins are owned by me and that I'm trusted? I should be able to have a pseudo-anonymous trusted wallet. That wallet should attach my digital signature which is unique to me. It should connect my real world identity to my pseudo-nym without a loss of pseudo-anonymity or privacy.

Having a database with names attached to wallet addresses is absolutely not the way to do it. Having a database of digital signatures with public keys is a way to do it. If you email the owner of the wallet then you can communicate with them to ask them their real world identity in a private way.

I believe Keyhotee might actually solve the issue. It allows for verified trusted accounts. It does not seem to require all the centralization, but it doesn't prevent KYC either from my understanding of it. You can attach your pseudo identity to your real identity. So if you have to access a certain site and be verified it might be possible to do it without having to give out your real name to that site. You would give a public key to that site instead and it would know if your public key is on the whitelist or blacklist. That would be a way of doing it.

The philosophical debate is whether or not it should be done? I think if Bitcoins are going to be worth $100,000 each it will have to be done. At that point the richest people in the world will be large holders of Bitcoins. So all the bribery and other corruption will become a problem at some point and if democracy is to continue to exist then you cannot have anonymous money flowing around by the billions or trillions.



legendary
Activity: 4396
Merit: 4755
November 14, 2013, 08:12:02 AM
#51
i tried to avoid alot of waffle in the last post, but it seems more explanation is needed so, replying to all the people that read a newspaper and take what is wrote as gospel:

STOP, CALM DOWN, RELAX.

now let me explain more detail of what my last post did not explain.
ignore the Forbes newspaper article and peoples opinions on what it means for bitcoin users. because it only causes chinese whispers.

now then:
coinvalidation does NOT want identification from every bitcoin USER link: https://coinvalidation.com/PDF_FOR_BITCOIN_USERS.pdf
coin validation wants to advise bitcoin businesses on how to become FIAT compliant, which will only affect bitcoin businesses that exchange bitcoin for DOLLARS, either for customers or for their own internal business needs. link: https://coinvalidation.com/PDF_FOR_BITCOIN_BUSINESSES.pdf

part of this is to build up a database of clean addresses of legitimate and compliant BUSINESSES not users. and a lidt of known black market withdrawal addresses.
this is so that while the "anonymous cash" still is not directly linked to an identity, government can see the source of the cash.
EG is it just 2 hops away from being mined. is it just 2 hops from being sourced from a compliant and legitimate business (clean addresses) or is it just 2 hops from a known black market.

now a bit deeper detail
everyone knows that there are only 12million coins thus far , and that in 2012 silk road transacted more then this amount over the year, meaning a large majority of well circulated coins has at some point been tainted atleast once.

this means that exchanges (being the central points of cashing in-out, profiting, etc, etc) would have alot of their mixed up pot of funds showing up as tainted. this does not make them dirty or illegal.

all coinvalidation want to do is to have a database of fully compliant BUSINESS public keys so that when customers withdraw funds, and use them elsewhere, shops can see that they were sourced from a legitimate exchange, a miner or another legitimate business.

giving the shops the freedom to accept other coins based on the taint level risk
EG if a coin is only 1 hop away from a known silk road address, they can refuse service if they chose to, based on the risk.

it is not about identifying the world population and investigating every user. only those that want to deal with FIAT, which has never changed for decades of government rules

now take your tin foil hats off,
if you actually read the government compliance rules (most established countries rules are very similar) governments do not accept/ reject/investigate every fiat transaction of every business. they request businesses to assess the risk and if deemed obvious as illegally used funds, to then and only then report it to serious crimes departments of government. this puts the onus on businesses to say
"hang on these coins are only 1 hop away from a silk road pubkey" and for the business to then look into the risk of it being a 'serious crime' before sending or not sending info to the government.

EG (A) pawnbroker in detroit. some guy comes in with a $20 bill that literally smells of drugs, he wants to buy a bit of bling. risk level of serious crime: low, requirement for AMLKYC: no
EG (B) pawnbroker in detroit. some guy comes in with a $20,000 of bills  he wants to buy a gold bar. risk level of serious crime: low Requirement of AMLKYC: yes
EG (C) pawnbroker in detroit. some guy comes in with a $20,000 of bills that smelled of drugs and he wants to buy a gold bar. risk level of serious crime: high Requirement of AMLKYC: yes

(A)the pawn broker would accept or reject the $20 based on risk, no ID required, much like any shop selling cigarettes, grocerys, etc.
(B)the pawn broker would ask for ID and other info from the $20k sale, still letting it through after the pawn broker does a quick check that the $20k serial numbers are not blacklisted.
(C)the pawn broker would request ID and check serial numbers of the drug tainted notes and make the decision to either refuse service, to report the customer, or to accept the risk and allow the sale. (third option is ill advised as it could affect the businesses licence status).

the coinvalidation service is not about getting people to write their name and zipcode onto every banknote they use, meaning that coinvalidation is not asking for identity information from every transaction and every public key.

they just want to build up a BUSINESS listing of known legit businesses and illecit businesses thus able to trace back where the funds originated.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
November 14, 2013, 08:08:49 AM
#50
http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/11/is-it-time-to-boycott-all-us-bitcoin.html

As of today, the efforts of Bitcoin Foundation and others who have told us that Bitcoin should be altered to make it more acceptable to the regulatory apparatus has finely bore fruit. A group of investors announced Coin Validation, a service designed to remove all possibility of financial privacy for Bitcoin users.

This service will work by asking Bitcoin businesses to voluntarily (at first) violate their customer's privacy by providing them with a list of every bitcoin address known to be associated with that customer. The list will be used to create a database of "clean" addresses, where clean means tied to AML/KYC information, with the ostensible goal of allowing these businesses avoid "tainted" Bitcoins.

The first thing to note about this plan is that it will in no way remain voluntary. Regulators in the US and possibly other countries are waiting for such a database to exist so that they can require all companies in their jurisdiction to only accept payments from customers whose identities can be fully tracked. So far they have not been able to require this because the technology does not exist, but Matt Mellon, Alex Waters, and Yifu Guo are apparently willing to build it for them. Now you who to thank for selling out your financial privacy.

Countermeasures

Use and create non-US alternatives:

It's virtually certain that every US-based Bitcoin company, as well as any company backed by venture capital firms, as well as any currency exchange which deals with USD is going to sign on to this plan. Bitcoin users who which to retain their privacy should avoid dealing with all of these companies, as well as create alternatives that are based outside the United States and not susceptible to political pressure.

Mobilize the international Bitcoin community:

Non-US Bitcoin users should demand that Bitcoin companies in their countries respect their privacy and refuse to participate in this or any other surveillance scheme.

Use privacy-enhancing technology:

Protocols like CoinJoin, if properly implemented and used,  can render the information in this database useless. Anyone who cares about financial privacy should ask the developers of their wallet software to implement this ASAP.

Practice good Bitcoin hygiene by never using the same address twice.

Abandon traditional businesses:

There's no point in lobbying traditional businesses based in the US and other repressive regimes to resist this kind of pressure. They are too vulnerable to pressure and are going to do whatever the regulators tell them to do.

They are, however, in no way essential to the future of Bitcoin.

The economy of the future is System D. Traditional businesses with their physical offices, corporate charters, bank accounts and licenses are holdovers of a dying paradigm. We should focus instead on creating tools to empower individuals to create censorship-resistant business models.

We will not build a bridge to the future by conforming to the past. While it's unfortunate that traditional Bitcoin businesses are trapped in a position where they must cripple the features of the currency in order to be allowed to operate, we as a community must continue to move forward even if it means leaving them behind.


Don't be silly. Just because one US company has a potentially bad idea you want to boycott all of America? So you think no other country could do the same thing? Did it work with the RIAA?

legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
November 14, 2013, 08:04:23 AM
#49
No opinion on the validity of the news, but I would not put something like this past governments, especially post NSA. And appealing to peoples greed, is definitely nothing new.

If this was implemented though. Would it only apply to US merchants?

Yeah, just like FACTA only applies to US banks  Roll Eyes anything that touches a US citizen or passes through US infrastructure, fibres, satellites etc will be caught up in the fucked up dragnet mentality.

If you think this wont go the same way as the NSA surveillance Orwellian nightmare you are naive in the extreme. Tin foil hats or not these guys are out-of-fucking-control and only some serious shit is going to wake the dumbass yanks up to what their government has become ... luckily the bitcoin system is not helpless against such overt (or covert) attacks, malignancy will be expelled like the cancerous growth it is, and there are many options for counter-attack. Make no mistake, this is an attack on bitcoin viability by the demonstrably most aggressive agent working against monetary freedom and peace on the planet.

Idiots like Yifu and Alex proably they have no idea they have been co-opted to work against bitcoin, yet.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
November 14, 2013, 07:40:52 AM
#48
No opinion on the validity of the news, but I would not put something like this past governments, especially post NSA. And appealing to peoples greed, is definitely nothing new.

If this was implemented though. Would it only apply to US merchants?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 14, 2013, 03:54:40 AM
#47
Feel free to share as open source comment, although I'm always happy with an original author credit!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qlraj/the_future_of_bitcoin_in_the_united_states/
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
November 14, 2013, 03:51:25 AM
#46
@OP - Resisting is futile, though very entertaining to watch.  Wink
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
November 14, 2013, 03:47:02 AM
#45
2020:

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Hi Dan there is a problem with the bitcoins you sent for the widget protectors you've ordered from us.

.......
......
Chinawidgets.co:
Good luck Dan

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
You too Bob
This deserves its own post. You should put it on Reddit or a blog or something.
Feel free to share as open source comment, although I'm always happy with an original author credit!
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
November 14, 2013, 03:39:52 AM
#44
2020:

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Hi Dan there is a problem with the bitcoins you sent for the widget protectors you've ordered from us.

Chinawidgets.co:
Hi Bob
What's the problem - the transaction has been in the blockchain since the weekend?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Hi Dan
Well I'm afraid your bitcoins are blacklisted.

Chinawidgets.co:
?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
According to CoinValidation one of the coins ancestors has been identified as a known criminal.

Chinawidgets.co:
That's terrible Dan - what did he do?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Well apparently he failed to pay for his medical bills then was arrested when the they tried to throw him and his family out of his house for rent arrears and he wouldn't leave on time.

Chinawidgets.co:
What a sad story - why didn't he leave?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Oh well his illness made him quadraplegic so he was stuck in his bed. The police arrested him for 'non-cooperation'.
Anyway that's another story - the point is I need some clean coins.

Chinawidgets.co:
Ok well can you send your ones back as I can still use them.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Sorry Dan I can't do that or I'll be charged with passing on stolen goods.
So I'll need some more coins. You could try sending to a fresh escrow address and we can check them that way?

Chinawidgets.co:
That's another few % Dan. And I've lost the coins I sent.
I'm already doing you a favour as I've relatives in the US and I've seen the poverty and trouble you're having on the news.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
But you're my last customer! All the others are using African suppliers!

Chinawidgets.co:
Sorry Bob but I've got a family to feed here and bitcoins don't grow on trees.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
 Cry Cry Cry
Ok Dan.
They've bounced my visa application for Canada again.
But things are looking up for my Mexican application!

Chinawidgets.co:
That son you didn't know you had been in contact again?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Yep, god bless that Fernando.
Of course he wants some of my remaining bitcoins but hey, it's all family!

Chinawidgets.co:
Good luck Dan

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
You too Bob
This deserves its own post. You should put it on Reddit or a blog or something.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 523
November 14, 2013, 03:24:42 AM
#43
Cheesy You need to post it in the Anecdotes section Cheesy:D:D
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
November 14, 2013, 03:19:32 AM
#42
2020:

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Hi Dan there is a problem with the bitcoins you sent for the widget protectors you've ordered from us.

Chinawidgets.co:
Hi Bob
What's the problem - the transaction has been in the blockchain since the weekend?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Hi Dan
Well I'm afraid your bitcoins are blacklisted.

Chinawidgets.co:
?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
According to CoinValidation one of the coins ancestors has been identified as a known criminal.

Chinawidgets.co:
That's terrible Dan - what did he do?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Well apparently he failed to pay for his medical bills then was arrested when the they tried to throw him and his family out of his house for rent arrears and he wouldn't leave on time.

Chinawidgets.co:
What a sad story - why didn't he leave?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Oh well his illness made him quadraplegic so he was stuck in his bed. The police arrested him for 'non-cooperation'.
Anyway that's another story - the point is I need some clean coins.

Chinawidgets.co:
Ok well can you send your ones back as I can still use them.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Sorry Dan I can't do that or I'll be charged with passing on stolen goods.
So I'll need some more coins. You could try sending to a fresh escrow address and we can check them that way?

Chinawidgets.co:
That's another few % Dan. And I've lost the coins I sent.
I'm already doing you a favour as I've relatives in the US and I've seen the poverty and trouble you're having on the news.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
But you're my last customer! All the others are using African suppliers!

Chinawidgets.co:
Sorry Bob but I've got a family to feed here and bitcoins don't grow on trees.

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
 Cry Cry Cry
Ok Dan.
They've bounced my visa application for Canada again.
But things are looking up for my Mexican application!

Chinawidgets.co:
That son you didn't know you had been in contact again?

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
Yep, god bless that Fernando.
Of course he wants some of my remaining bitcoins but hey, it's all family!

Chinawidgets.co:
Good luck Dan

Americanwidgetprotectors.com:
You too Bob
sr. member
Activity: 388
Merit: 250
November 14, 2013, 02:51:29 AM
#41
Given the US is something of a rogue state at the moment, I'd happily direct my BTC elsewhere, such as the EU.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
November 14, 2013, 02:36:13 AM
#40
Did people seriously think BTC was going to 'go main stream' while still completely flouting AML/KYC regulations?  Libertarian fantasies do not a viable currency make, if you want BTC to remain an underground thing then by all means keep existing in a legal grey area, but don't expect everyone on the planet to be using it 5 years from now.

... and you lot are delusional if you think KYC/AML laws are compatible with a functional monetary system .... stalemate I guess?

Edit: I guess you at least recognize where the problem lies, BitCoin supplies the mirror, not the solution, for your problems.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
November 14, 2013, 02:33:25 AM
#39
Did people seriously think BTC was going to 'go main stream' while still completely flouting AML/KYC regulations?

Bitcoin exposes how stupid those regulations are. I fully expect KYC/AML to be repealed. I also suspect at least a few governments will try to ban Bitcoin first.
sr. member
Activity: 826
Merit: 250
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
November 14, 2013, 02:28:11 AM
#38
Did people seriously think BTC was going to 'go main stream' while still completely flouting AML/KYC regulations?  Libertarian fantasies do not a viable currency make, if you want BTC to remain an underground thing then by all means keep existing in a legal grey area, but don't expect everyone on the planet to be using it 5 years from now.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
November 14, 2013, 02:23:50 AM
#37
continues grow tex usa gov Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
ASIC Myth Buster
November 14, 2013, 02:17:55 AM
#36
this year, many Americans abroad lost their bank accounts and stock accounts and others because of the New American Laws.  WIth more suppression to the Bitcoins, everyone except American will end up making the profit and Bitcoin continues to glow while, merchants from other countries will eat into the profits that could be made by American and pay tax for it.

It seems, USA is choking his own neck this year
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
November 14, 2013, 01:22:12 AM
#35
OK, I really hated the tone of this post ... first who the hell are you to come here denigrating and accusing people of sniffing substance, hallucinating and hyperventilating? ... even before you get close to your point (which wasn't exactly clear) that seemed like a veiled apology for this disastrous business model because it has been 'misconstrued' by a naive journalist?

If you have a point, stick to it and cut the ad hominen crap. Point is you don't have a good argument and people are right to be terribly upset at this very bad idea and obvious outright attack on their financial privacy and the future viability of bitcoin.

Already in 1749 the courts recognised the necessity for fungibility of coin as a basic function, yet idiots over 300 years later cannot see that what the govt. is attempting to do to with money is exactly that, break fungibility. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Bitcoin is an opt out of the current broken monetary system, not the least of which is its recent terrible tracking systems layer, why the hell would bitcoin want to go back down that failed Centralised model path?!

ok every CALM DOWN and take away the sniffing glue away from your noses

its seems 99% of people are reading "opinions" of what coinvalidation is about, and not reading the fact that it is just the writers opinion as oppose to the facts given directly from coinvalidation. this is known as chinese whispers.

so here goes, please remove tin foil hats and anything producing hallucinatory fumes... read twice and take regular breathes of fresh air to ensure the information is absorbed...

coinvalidation HAVE NOT personally talked much about what their system is, anyone trying to describe it as the abolishment of anonymity are totally wrong.

coinvalidation is a company (not the government) but a business advice company offering bitcoin businesses information on how to PROPERLY comply with AML/KYC in regards to sections of their business involving FIAT.
EG Exchanges
EG companies that convert BTC into FIAT for wages/stock/profit (tax purposes)

coinvalidation is NOT requiring identification of all bitcoin users. only the users that want to withdraw FIAT from legitimate exchanges above the AMLKYC thresholds.

coinvalidation is NOT about red flagging addresses with silk road taint.

now take 3 breathes of fresh air... relax... and now go back to your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and glue sniffing activities about a new topic.
full member
Activity: 120
Merit: 100
November 14, 2013, 01:02:59 AM
#34
Im not sure about the validity of this "news" and im not really a supporter of "big brother watching us"....

BUT, IF the US gov do know who ALL addresses belong to, what difference will it actually make? it is not as though US citizens have privacy anyhow.... the gov already knows pretty much all there is to be known about its citizens.
(they currently know where people live, work, play, vacate, how much money people have, earn, save, spend, what schools people went to, how well educated people are, if people have a criminal record, when and where people were born or died, health records, who peoples friends are, what TV channels people watch, and probably a shitload more!)

Other than more loss of privacy, what effect do people think this will have in reality anyhow?.... unless you are laundering money or evading your tax, it is likely to have very little effect on how we use bitcoin.

If the US gov ARE pushing for this "transparency" at least they are not pushing to ban it!
member
Activity: 67
Merit: 10
November 14, 2013, 01:02:51 AM
#33
Peter Vessenes is the one who got this ball rolling, and he's one of the founders.
He talked about tainting a couple times. That's it. And given that he's a lawyer and not an economist, he probably didn't realize how terrible the idea was at the time. The foundation has never, and likely will never, endorse tainting.

They will be, at least any of them under FinCEN jurisdiction.

Exchanges are already a lost cause (even the ones outside the US), precisely because they receive tons of Fiat money and integrate directly into the regular financial system. FINCEN has not claimed jurisdiction over regular merchants, who accept bitcoin as payment.

Even if we stop this initiative, though, they'll just start over and just not announce it next time. US law allows/requires them to do this.

The data gathering aspect, yes. But they can only share the information that they actually know about the buyer. Digital goods merchants probably only know your email address, not your identity. But then again, the NSA can get the info even if no money changes hands at all. Hell they can get your info regardless of where you buy your stuff, because most of the shipping companies are US based, and therefore their shipping records are accessible to the Govt. This is unfortunate, but has little to do with Bitcoin

The really dangerous part of the CoinValidation initiative, is to make merchants reject funds that aren't sent from an address with an associated identity. But that can't be done in secret, because they need to tell you that you need to register and give them a bunch of info.

Again, let's not panic, I suspect that this idea will be killed off pretty quickly. We don't need to start punishing US merchants in advance just because they might decide to cooperate. We can always do it after the fact, and avoid hurting people who are on our side (despite differing tactical approaches).
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