Time to Boycott all US Companies - page 3.

justusranvier

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Quote from: EmperorBob on November 14, 2013, 12:40:49 AM

1. The Bitcoin Foundation is in no way associated with these jokers (neither is DATA, as far as I know).

Peter Vessenes is the one who got this ball rolling, and he's one of the founders.

Perhaps the current makeup of the Foundation is less inclined this way, but the damage has already been done.

Quote from: EmperorBob on November 14, 2013, 12:40:49 AM

2. No sane US merchant will cooperate unless they are required to by law. You don't turn away customers, or make them jump through extra hoops to pay you.

They will be, at least any of them under FinCEN jurisdiction.

Even if we stop this initiative, though, they'll just start over and just not announce it next time. US law allows/requires them to do this.

Quote from: EmperorBob on November 14, 2013, 12:40:49 AM

3. All merchant associations (BF,DATA, etc.), especially those whose members are mostly US based, will be the ones most hurt by this system becoming legally required.

I very much hope so. I sympathize with the people in the US who have tried to play by the rules and do the right thing just to be allowed to operate, but Bitcoin is more important than any individual business.

EmperorBob

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Quote from: justusranvier on November 13, 2013, 03:50:12 PM

As of today, the efforts of Bitcoin Foundation and others who have told us that Bitcoin should be altered to make it more acceptable to the regulatory apparatus has finely bore fruit.
... snip ...

A few points:

1. The Bitcoin Foundation is in no way associated with these jokers (neither is DATA, as far as I know).
2. No sane US merchant will cooperate unless they are required to by law. You don't turn away customers, or make them jump through extra hoops to pay you.
3. All merchant associations (BF,DATA, etc.), especially those whose members are mostly US based, will be the ones most hurt by this system becoming legally required.

I realize you don't trust the Foundation. That's fine. You may dislike their conciliatory approach. That's a separate discussion.
However you can bet that they will almost certainly be opposed to a law requiring this system, because of how much it would hurt their members.
And because they've been effective at engaging regulators, they'll be the most able to block any law forcing CoinValidation onto US merchants, whether through lobbying, lawsuits, or other methods.

The guys who will most likely stop this from becoming law in the US are the very people you blame. They've got too much to lose.

User705

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First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold

Quote from: Sage on November 13, 2013, 07:12:52 PM

Just one of many attempts that are sure to follow to co-opt Bitcoin.

I trust that the Bitcoin community is smart enough to see through this one (and the many that will follow).

Why? Most large holders are probably already known and since they have a lot to lose they wouldn't want to rock the boat. Smaller holders won't care since not a lot is at stake for them.

grue

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Quote from: MaxBTC1 on November 13, 2013, 07:23:10 PM

>visiting, reading, or even copying what reddit says ever

Seriously?

>having a hardon for hating reddit
really?

justusranvier

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 13, 2013, 10:24:27 PM

Here's a quote (second paragraph):

Quote

It’s a tracking system for Bitcoin ownership that would theoretically weed out ‘bad actors’ – like the Dread Pirate Roberts – from the legitimate Bitcoin business world. Their plan is to compile a database of the known identities associated with Bitcoin addresses in the hope that Coin Validation will become the one-stop-identity shop for law enforcement when trying to find out who’s doing something nefarious with Bitcoin, while providing a red-flag system for businesses who have customers trying to use Bitcoin that’s associated with illicit use.

“Essentially, we’ve been working with regulators for a structured approach for Bitcoin customers to be compliant,” says Waters. “We set up an API to work with their systems and we supply reporting tools they need for their databases. Which bitcoin addresses belong to a person? That’s the problem we’re solving.”

This sounds to me like she directly interviewed the people involved.

If franky1 is correct about the nature of Coin Validation, then it means that she fabricated the article out of whole cloth.

On the other hand, franky1 is on my ignore list so I presume that happened for a good reason.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: justusranvier on November 13, 2013, 09:36:52 PM

Quote from: franky1 on November 13, 2013, 09:33:25 PM

ok every CALM DOWN and take away the sniffing glue away from your noses

its seems 99% of people are reading "opinions" of what coinvalidation is about, and not reading the fact that it is just the writers opinion as oppose to the facts given directly from coinvalidation. this is known as chinese whispers.

so here goes, please remove tin foil hats and anything producing hallucinatory fumes... read twice and take regular breathes of fresh air to ensure the information is absorbed...

coinvalidation HAVE NOT personally talked much about what their system is, anyone trying to describe it as the abolishment of anonymity are totally wrong.

coinvalidation is a company (not the government) but a business advice company offering bitcoin businesses information on how to PROPERLY comply with AML/KYC in regards to sections of their business involving FIAT.
EG Exchanges
EG companies that convert BTC into FIAT for wages/stock/profit (tax purposes)

coinvalidation is NOT requiring identification of all bitcoin users. only the users that want to withdraw FIAT from legitimate exchanges above the AMLKYC thresholds.

coinvalidation is NOT about red flagging addresses with silk road taint.

now take 3 breathes of fresh air... relax... and now go back to your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and glue sniffing activities about a new topic.

Did Kashmir Hill fabricate the quotes in her article?

Here's a quote (second paragraph):

Quote

It’s a tracking system for Bitcoin ownership that would theoretically weed out ‘bad actors’ – like the Dread Pirate Roberts – from the legitimate Bitcoin business world. Their plan is to compile a database of the known identities associated with Bitcoin addresses in the hope that Coin Validation will become the one-stop-identity shop for law enforcement when trying to find out who’s doing something nefarious with Bitcoin, while providing a red-flag system for businesses who have customers trying to use Bitcoin that’s associated with illicit use.

“Essentially, we’ve been working with regulators for a structured approach for Bitcoin customers to be compliant,” says Waters. “We set up an API to work with their systems and we supply reporting tools they need for their databases. Which bitcoin addresses belong to a person? That’s the problem we’re solving.”

hlynur

hero member

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Quote from: redwraith on November 13, 2013, 09:38:32 PM

You're probably right. So much fear and speculative hyperbole in these forums.

fear and speculative hyperbole were also often heard words when discussing the scale of web observation by US some years ago...
look how that turned out.
US authorities will try to get their hands to any early branch of this young economy if they can't get to technology's roots.
Bitcoin presents among other things a huge shift of wealth over time and therefore the existing financial structures will logically make attempts to preserve status quo within this new system.

I personally like to keep a roll of tinfoil at hand at this point and watch out for any signs of outgrowth during the regulation process.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: samson on November 13, 2013, 07:05:11 PM

I'd like to see any curent and future government seized Bitcoins banned from ever becoming confirmed transactions on the blockchain.

Of course this won't happen now as regulation is going to start hitting hard and what 'the government' say goes.

In this case we're talking about the most over zealous government in the world - the US Government.

Those SR coins should never be allowed to move wallets again.

Just a matter of time before all BTC owned by US residents are seized as "criminal proceeds", as we all commit 3 felonies a day, on average. Would make the rest of the world's BTC worth more if all innocent US BTC owners got fucked into oblivion, though.

AndrewWilliams

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Fourth richest fictional character

First it's coin validation, then its...

I don't like the sound of it.

redwraith

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Quote from: franky1 on November 13, 2013, 09:33:25 PM

ok every CALM DOWN and take away the sniffing glue away from your noses

its seems 99% of people are reading "opinions" of what coinvalidation is about, and not reading the fact that it is just the writers opinion as oppose to the facts given directly from coinvalidation. this is known as chinese whispers.

so here goes, please remove tin foil hats and anything producing hallucinatory fumes... read twice and take regular breathes of fresh air to ensure the information is absorbed...

coinvalidation HAVE NOT personally talked much about what their system is, anyone trying to describe it as the abolishment of anonymity are totally wrong.

coinvalidation is a company (not the government) but a business advice company offering bitcoin businesses information on how to PROPERLY comply with AML/KYC in regards to sections of their business involving FIAT.
EG Exchanges
EG companies that convert BTC into FIAT for wages/stock/profit (tax purposes)

coinvalidation is NOT requiring identification of all bitcoin users. only the users that want to withdraw FIAT from legitimate exchanges above the AMLKYC thresholds.

coinvalidation is NOT about red flagging addresses with silk road taint.

now take 3 breathes of fresh air... relax... and now go back to your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and glue sniffing activities about a new topic.

You're probably right. So much fear and speculative hyperbole in these forums.

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1013

Quote from: franky1 on November 13, 2013, 09:33:25 PM

ok every CALM DOWN and take away the sniffing glue away from your noses

its seems 99% of people are reading "opinions" of what coinvalidation is about, and not reading the fact that it is just the writers opinion as oppose to the facts given directly from coinvalidation. this is known as chinese whispers.

so here goes, please remove tin foil hats and anything producing hallucinatory fumes... read twice and take regular breathes of fresh air to ensure the information is absorbed...

coinvalidation HAVE NOT personally talked much about what their system is, anyone trying to describe it as the abolishment of anonymity are totally wrong.

coinvalidation is a company (not the government) but a business advice company offering bitcoin businesses information on how to PROPERLY comply with AML/KYC in regards to sections of their business involving FIAT.
EG Exchanges
EG companies that convert BTC into FIAT for wages/stock/profit (tax purposes)

coinvalidation is NOT requiring identification of all bitcoin users. only the users that want to withdraw FIAT from legitimate exchanges above the AMLKYC thresholds.

coinvalidation is NOT about red flagging addresses with silk road taint.

now take 3 breathes of fresh air... relax... and now go back to your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and glue sniffing activities about a new topic.

Did Kashmir Hill fabricate the quotes in her article?

franky1

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Activity: 4396

Merit: 4755

ok every CALM DOWN and take away the sniffing glue away from your noses

its seems 99% of people are reading "opinions" of what coinvalidation is about, and not reading the fact that it is just the writers opinion as oppose to the facts given directly from coinvalidation. this is known as chinese whispers.

so here goes, please remove tin foil hats and anything producing hallucinatory fumes... read twice and take regular breathes of fresh air to ensure the information is absorbed...

coinvalidation HAVE NOT personally talked much about what their system is, anyone trying to describe it as the abolishment of anonymity are totally wrong.

coinvalidation is a company (not the government) but a business advice company offering bitcoin businesses information on how to PROPERLY comply with AML/KYC in regards to sections of their business involving FIAT.
EG Exchanges
EG companies that convert BTC into FIAT for wages/stock/profit (tax purposes)

coinvalidation is NOT requiring identification of all bitcoin users. only the users that want to withdraw FIAT from legitimate exchanges above the AMLKYC thresholds.

coinvalidation is NOT about red flagging addresses with silk road taint.

now take 3 breathes of fresh air... relax... and now go back to your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and glue sniffing activities about a new topic.

hlynur

hero member

Activity: 770

Merit: 501

Quote from: justusranvier on November 13, 2013, 03:50:12 PM

The economy of the future is System D. Traditional businesses with their physical offices, corporate charters, bank accounts and licenses are holdovers of a dying paradigm. We should focus instead on creating tools to empower individuals to create censorship-resistant business models.

We will not build a bridge to the future by conforming to the past. While it's unfortunate that traditional Bitcoin businesses are trapped in a position where they must cripple the features of the currency in order to be allowed to operate, we as a community must continue to move forward even if it means leaving them behind.

ForeignPolicy.com is blocked as long as don't i don't sign up for an account.
here's a quick pdf capture of the linked article "The shadow superpower": http://document.li/2TrW

this is a serious issue. it was just a question of time until some people start getting on their knees for integration by trading honour and trust for individual wealth & power and start disrupting the technology.
i'm curious about future developments next year in that regard.

MicroGuy

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Twitter @realmicroguy

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: rampantparanoia on November 13, 2013, 07:02:15 PM

each miner should be required to send their coin to a mixer prior to selling on an exchange, so all coins are tainted.

Yes, lets force people to do things!

Lol. Yes. I vote that we start forcing people to submit.

Izerian

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Activity: 86

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I understand, but I won't resort to that which I am trying to escape.

I had to log in just to quote / +1 / bump that...

Carry on.

MaxBTC1

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Quote from: shawshankinmate37927 on November 13, 2013, 06:37:53 PM

Quote from: Painful Truth on November 13, 2013, 06:30:42 PM

Lots of comments about this also on reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qj7sw/sanitizing_bitcoin_this_company_wants_to_track/

Angry

Quote from that reddit thread:

Quote

Bitcoins should not be assessed according to where they have been. That would ruin their fungibility and require coin blacklists that would create a central authority.

This post on Reddit explains how in 1749, a court sided with the Royal Bank of Scotland in its legal challenge to a request for such a blacklist. The court ruled that making money responsible for the acts of its previous holders would "render the Notes absolutely useless":

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1le87j/bitcoin_core_dev_on_stolen_coins_and_transaction/cbycmhk

Individuals/criminals should be blacklisted, not money.

>visiting, reading, or even copying what reddit says ever

Seriously?

Anon136

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Activity: 1722

Merit: 1217

let the little men in their little silos hatch their little schemes. who cares. if this thing does get implemented than we will need to mix our coins with a system like coinjoin. if the government is able to put enough pressure on merchants to force them to reject mixed coins, than i will still mix my coins anyway even if it makes them worth less and then i'll just buy my toilet paper and shaving creme on the silkroad 8.0 with mixed coins.

Sage

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Just one of many attempts that are sure to follow to co-opt Bitcoin.

I trust that the Bitcoin community is smart enough to see through this one (and the many that will follow).

justusranvier

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Quote from: adamstgBit on November 13, 2013, 07:03:45 PM

will one of the devs please say something!

question 1) WHY!?
question 2) you are FIRED!

One did:

Quote from: gmaxwell on November 13, 2013, 04:44:01 PM

Is destroying user's financial privacy and Bitcoin's fungiblity the next big business for someone to get rich quick on?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

It doesn't have to be, but preventing the future requires substantial movement in the default behavior of everyday Bitcoin users, not just a minority of people with special interests.

rampantparanoia

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: rampantparanoia on November 13, 2013, 07:02:15 PM

each miner should be required to send their coin to a mixer prior to selling on an exchange, so all coins are tainted.

Yes, lets force people to do things!

if all coins are blacklisted, it defeats the system being introduced. of course, no one can really be forced to do anything without the $5 wrench...

Topic: Time to Boycott all US Companies - page 3. (Read 9202 times)