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Topic: ToominCoin aka "Bitcoin_Classic" #R3KT - page 15. (Read 157147 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
Bull fucking shit. It turns fully-validating nodes into non-validating nodes.

A non-Segwit node can always validate transactions that are relevant to them. They do not validate the witness portion of Segwit transactions. They also do not generate Segwit addresses, nor do they participate in Segwit transactions. What you're talking about is moot.

The only real issue there is partitioning risk in the bootstrapping phase -- since Segwit nodes can't bootstrap from non-Segwit nodes. The solution for this (dropping non Segwit peers for Segwit peers in outgoing connections) has already been coded and merged.

Soft-fork segwit is (unless you were closely watching Dr. Backamoto's extension block proposal) such an unexpected and refreshingly elegant optimal solution (IE pleasing to both 'sides') it doubtless grinds Gavinistas' gears that Evil BlockSchemeNorthCorea agent provocateur Lukejr was the primary author.

I predict the Gavinista Jihad against segwit will be just as successful as the one against OP_CLTV.  That is, not at all.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
Bull fucking shit. It turns fully-validating nodes into non-validating nodes.

A non-Segwit node can always validate transactions that are relevant to them. They do not validate the witness portion of Segwit transactions. They also do not generate Segwit addresses, nor do they participate in Segwit transactions. What you're talking about is moot.

The only real issue there is partitioning risk in the bootstrapping phase -- since Segwit nodes can't bootstrap from non-Segwit nodes. The solution for this (dropping non Segwit peers for Segwit peers in outgoing connections) has already been coded and merged.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4788
its hopeless, you will forever believe 8MB blocks would break bitcoin.
They would. Even a 2 MB block size limit could, but that's what the 'hacky workaround' with those limitations is all about. It is you who does not know things, and it is you who is being fed lies. Do you even know what the difference between linear and quadratic scaling means? Have you even heard of the big O?  

bitcoin runs on a raspberry pi.. with the new libsecp256k1 it makes validating alot faster, so that means 2mb is no problem. especially on standard computers that are less then 10 years old (basic majority) and still ok for older computers and the said raspberry Pi.. but hey, Lauda thinks everyone should stick to Pi or jump to massive servers.. he cannot see the normal home computer category in the middle

the only time that linear vs quadratic becomes a noticeable problem is not really today.. but when LN becomes a thing. when they will be throwing out LARGE settlement transactions.

the linear vs quadratic debate is not about normal user transactions.. but about preventing a bottleneck to allow LN to happen smoothly. in the future.
i feel sorry when people think its their right to try dissing bitcoin to try to sway people to think all these new features are needed to move people onto sidechains and second layer solutions which wont be as secure or distributed.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Well you didn't answer my question.

Oh - we're gonna play _that_ game? OK - you first:


So you are basically admitting that bigger blocks will bloat the blockchain?

If your definition of 'bloat' is 'bigger', then ... ummm.... duh. Yes. What is the point of your question?

The point of my reasoning above is to show that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

And how is bigger blocks not centralization?

Oh hell with it - I'll answer first, though it really be your turn. Better - I'll answer in the form of a question...

And how is kumquats not hairbrushes?

In no sane set of definitions for 'bigger blocks' and 'centralization' are they equivalent. English much?

Now, it is _possible_ that bigger blocks _might_lead_to_ centralization. It is also possible that it does not.

Now here's a question for you -

Quote
It doesn't really matter how bad SegWit is. What you advocate is far worse.

As:
a) you think SegWit is The One True Way;
b) you cede that SegWit requires more resources of a fully-validating node than the status quo to represent each transaction; and
c) you seem to value centralization very highly;
then:
is your true goal to 'decentralize' by reducing transaction count to zero?

Quote
SegWit isn't perfect but at least it's opt in. It's not forced on anyone.

Bull fucking shit. It turns fully-validating nodes into non-validating nodes.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo

I'm thinking KNC was the big short that was holding back the market ... and they just blew $2million that finally bankrupted them. Last roll of the dice at the casino.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner

gavin's opinion is just as valid as maxwel's

And C.W. is Satoshi.  Cheesy
 


Hahahahahaha...

Classic!!!!! (no pun intended)

REKKING INTENSIFIES
i must admit...
gavin has lost some credibility.
but he's quite capable as a dev.
sometimes i feel like only core devs agree with delaying block size increases.
theres alot of sites that implement custom wallets they know bitcoin code backwards and forwards ( fuck they wrote their own impl) like the bitfinex guys they have a rock solid wallet impl.
i think if you excule core devs, the rough consensus is that segwit all good, and 2MB blocks probably isnt a bad idea... they like both... i like both! we all like both....
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
So you cede that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

Huh? Its stated goal is fixing transaction malleability.

So you also cede that for the same set of transactions, the Omnibus SegWit Changeset consumes more memory and more bandwidth than without The SegWit Omnibus Changeset. Excellent. Who's next?

That's an odd question. "For the same set of transactions" suggests that OP_SEGWIT is not relevant here. Segwit transactions are not "the same set of transactions" as non-Segwit transactions.

But I acknowledge what you're getting at -- outputs. Technically, by pulling the witness out, a 1MB block becomes 500kB, as far as the byte counter in the consensus code is concerned. If you are suggesting that Segwit transactions might technically be bigger by a few bytes, you'd be right. However, Schnorr signatures (Segwit-required) alone will not only negate that, but will significantly reduce transaction size.

If, in regards to Segwit's [flex] block size increase, you're asking whether more data = more data, then yes. More data = more data. To which I would ask, what point are you trying to make? You deleted the portion of my quote that explains the relevant issue:

Quote
The stated goal of bitcoin is decentralization

Just no. Other than the fact that 'decentralization' is a nebulous concept (decentralization of what notwithstanding), the bitcoin whitepaper does not mention decentralization even once.

Um, what did you think "Peer-to-Peer" referred to in "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System?" Feel free to google "peer-to-peer":

https://www.google.com/search?q=Peer-to-Peer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
In fact, the goal, as explained in the first sentence, is "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution."

Indeed. Peer-to-peer is by definition decentralized. Removing financial institutions from transactions means removing centralized third parties. It looks foolish on you to argue that decentralization doesn't matter in regards to bitcoin, given that it was its stated raison d'etre. To suggest that decentralization matters not means that bitcoin need not be P2P.

Quote
at a time when many node operators (including myself) are already near the max of upload bandwidth they can contribute. Big ups to Core for maxuploadtarget and blocksonly to help us contribute the maximum possible without interfering with other bandwidth-heavy activities (gaming, streaming, torrents, video-conferencing, etc).

Cheese? Who's in the Free Shit ArmyTM now?

What are you babbling about? I'm contributing all the bandwidth I can for nothing in return. Big blockers suggest that we increase capacity simply to keep transactions cheap or free for users. That means externalizing the cost of transactions away from users (who get cheap fees) and forcing them onto node operators (who need to propagate them to all connections). I'm happy to pay more for transaction fees -- transaction relaying and validation is not free; the IC3 paper put it at $1-6 per confirmed transaction. I'm not happy to endlessly give up more and more bandwidth because people don't want to pay to push transactions. I don't have an option to access more bandwidth from my residence, so those externalized costs would just force me off the network eventually, all else equal.

I don't expect anything for free. I contribute my bandwidth partially out of security and partially out of altruism. You seem to think I should pay for users to transact for free or extremely cheap, forever, with no regard for the actual cost of validating/relaying transactions, nor UTXO set cost -- people who refuse to contribute to bitcoin's security. No thanks. I'm happy to see those people get their transactions stuck and/or dropped from mempool if they refuse to wise up. This isn't a fucking charity. Bitcoin isn't a public service for users to transact for free -- it is an incentive-based economy.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
The market rallied because of ant pools independent thinking demonstrated that bitcoin works!

No. The market rallied because a false promise to deliver thousands of coins at a loss got liquidated on a settlement date.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

gavin's opinion is just as valid as maxwel's

And C.W. is Satoshi.  Cheesy
 


Hahahahahaha...

Classic!!!!! (no pun intended)

REKKING INTENSIFIES
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
fuck Antpool. He can go ahead and block Segwit implementation all he wants -- it's only big blockers that are crying for a capacity increase, anyway. And in that case, no one can blame Core for "stagnating development" given how many doors Segwit opens for scalability, privacy and new features.

Well i hope antpool stick to its guns and doesn't run segwit code until core makes good on their promise.

Those of us who believe in bitcoin because of cypherpunk ethics and its usefulness to evade state actors -- we will never, ever give in to your pathetic pandering to corporations and centralized miners. We will oppose you, always and forever.




hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500

The point of my reasoning above is to show that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

And how is bigger blocks not centralization?

So you cede that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands. Excellent. First Lauda, now forevernoob. Who else?

Well you didn't answer my question.
It doesn't really matter how bad SegWit is. What you advocate is far worse.

SegWit isn't perfect but at least it's opt in. It's not forced on anyone.
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
bitcoin 0.1.0 was deemed "production-ready" by satoshi.
and he subscribed to the same damn make blocks bigger and bigger scaling vision.
does that make him an idiot?

XT failed because poeple didnt like the idea that nodes on the network would eventually cost 1000's of dollars yearly to run should the network grow to visa like TX/sec, not because it was technically flawed. they see increased cost to nodes as having a centralizing effect. they are WRONG, but thats just my opinion... and few subscribe to it.

you small blockers like to pretend everything would come to a grinding halt if blocks were huge, ( some of you would say 2MB is "technically impossible") but thats not true, it just makes running a node more expensive



There is no such thing as "big blockers" and "small blockers" - there is merely the fact that bitcoin is in its current position because proposals such as Seg wit have been overwhelmingly accepted as the generally correct way forward at this point in time in bitcoin's development while XT/Classic have failed to muster sufficient support because they were unable to persuade in terms of evidence and/or logic. 

Accordingly, it seems like it would be more productive to focus on developing, building and brainstorming regarding bitcoin's current projected path, rather than seeming to cry over spilt milk (for Lauda's cat)...   yeah, sure, increasing the blocksize limit is most likely not out of the picture, but it is not currently something that is as easy as folks like you and some of the other XT/Classic proponents seem to continue to distractingly rally around.. Quite likely it is not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be that the current forward direction does not include something that you and some other minority whiners keep apparently butt-hurt screaming about.
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


gavin's opinion is just as valid as maxwel's
And C.W. is Satoshi.  Cheesy
 



Hahahahahaha...

Classic!!!!! (no pun intended)
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
So you cede that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

Huh? Its stated goal is fixing transaction malleability.

So you also cede that for the same set of transactions, the Omnibus SegWit Changeset consumes more memory and more bandwidth than without The SegWit Omnibus Changeset. Excellent. Who's next?

Quote
The stated goal of bitcoin is decentralization

Just no. Other than the fact that 'decentralization' is a nebulous concept (decentralization of what notwithstanding), the bitcoin whitepaper does not mention decentralization even once. It does use the term 'central authority'. Twice. Referring to a single minter of the currency. (hmm. funny. that's the 'of what') A role that non-mining nodes have absolutely no effect upon.

In fact, the goal, as explained in the first sentence, is "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. "

Quote
at a time when many node operators (including myself) are already near the max of upload bandwidth they can contribute. Big ups to Core for maxuploadtarget and blocksonly to help us contribute the maximum possible without interfering with other bandwidth-heavy activities (gaming, streaming, torrents, video-conferencing, etc).

Cheese? Who's in the Free Shit ArmyTM now?
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
they will code it in, or else.

or else what?

we don't code for terrorists.

Miners will leave antpool, if they don't agree with their lack of cooperation in bitcoin and ill-found destructiveness

what if, miners leave core if they don't agree with their lack of cooperation?


Nothing wrong with miners joining up with antpool, if that's what they believe is the best thing to do, but in reality they are not going to do it because they are not that dumb. 

This XT/classic bullshit has played out for long enough that even people who were giving the benefit of the doubt to Gavin and some of the other disingenuous folks, have kind of figured out that the underlying goal was not really to fix any real technical problem, and therefore there is a fair presumption of disingenuousness and even evil coming from that camp.. and a large number of the miners (who are invested in the success of bitcoin) are not going to fuck up their livelihood for some fanciful chasing of ghosts that don't in fact exist.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
So you cede that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

Huh? Its stated goal is fixing transaction malleability. The stated goal of bitcoin is decentralization -- therefore any and all changes should be viewed in that context.

That's why it's so important that Segwit is opt-in (and backwards compatible), at a time when many node operators (including myself) are already near the max of upload bandwidth they can contribute. Big ups to Core for maxuploadtarget and blocksonly to help us contribute the maximum possible without interfering with other bandwidth-heavy activities (gaming, streaming, torrents, video-conferencing, etc).
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight

The point of my reasoning above is to show that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

And how is bigger blocks not centralization?

So you cede that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands. Excellent. First Lauda, now forevernoob. Who else?
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
I'm pretty sure I just saw a post comparing Gavin's face to some random nazis.

You apparently missed the point then. There was no comparison between Gavin and Nazis. Read the accompanying quote and do a little research. That quote (and image, based on his reference to wearing star patches) suggests that Gavin will kneel before, and will do anything to appease, the state.
hero member
Activity: 687
Merit: 500
Well I apologize for assuming that "big blocker" meant that you support bigger blocks?

Just no. The statement you made -- which I was obviously replying to -- was thus:

I thought the majority of "big blockers" now regard Bitcoin as a failed experiment and willing to let go of it and move on to alt coins like Ethereum?


Note your claim that bigblockers "regard Bitcoin as a failed experiment" and "willing to let go of it" and "move on to alt coins like Ethereum". I'm just informing you of the likely reason you believe these falsehoods (if you are not merely dishonestly erecting a straw man argument for rhetorical purposes, that is).

Please do explain what kind of big blocker you are then. You won't get a pass just because you don't want stuff for free.
Since you support bigger blocks I think you have an agenda.
For example am I correct in my assessment that you believe in democracy?

Quote
Your big block pals are now crying that they cannot afford to send transactions.

Some uninformed or unthinking bigblocker minority, yes. But such are not my pals. My bigblocker pals are crying that transaction volume cannot increase further, due to a stupid limitation in the expression of the code.

Quote
They are under the impression that everything should be free. Kinda reminds me of the Bernie bots.

Again, it appears to me that you are parroting a mischaracterization. You ought to get out of the echo chamber from time to time.


Well it doesn't matter if you aren't a socialist who wants everything for free.
My point is that with bigger blocks transaction fees will be much lower and everyone will be able to send whatever they want all the time even stupid transactions that are just bloat.

So you are basically advocating a centrally planned system where you allow everyone to send whatever the fuck they want even though their transactions are stupid and don't belong on the blockchain.

What I am advocating is a free enterprise system where the market decides what goes on the blockchain or not.
If you want to send 0.0001 to a dice game you can either pay the market price of a transaction or use a side chain.


How is SegWit bloating Bitcoin?

'Decentralization' without fully-validating nodes is not really decentralization. Each node in a decentralized network must be able to verify all transactions for itself.

Accordingly, the only nodes that count for decentralization are those that maintain not only the transaction forkbranch of the data, but also the witness forkbranch of the data.

The sum of the transaction forkbranch of the data, plus the witness forkbranch of the data, is somewhat larger than it would be if the witness data stayed in the same block. There is additional data needed to correlate the correct block of transaction data with the correct block of witness data.

For a fully validating node, the resource demands are accordingly higher for The SegWit Omnibus Changeset than a simple bump of maxblocksize.

That is only the first layer of how The SegWit omnibus Changeset is bloating bitcoin.

It is smaller than franky1's scenario, but it does not require his/her (fully rational, BTW) interpretation of Core and Blockstream statements of what they might want to do in the future.

edit: overloaded use of fork replaced with branch


Are you saying that SegWit will be a bigger bump than 2MB blocksize increase and therefore bloat the chain?


For the same set of transactions, the Omnibus SegWit Changeset consumes more memory and more bandwidth than without The SegWit Omnibus Changeset. 'Cause maths.

Quote
So you are basically admitting that bigger blocks will bloat the blockchain?

If your definition of 'bloat' is 'bigger', then ... ummm.... duh. Yes. What is the point of your question?

The point of my reasoning above is to show that The SegWit Omnibus Changeset is antithetical to its stated goal of decentralization through small resource demands.

And how is bigger blocks not centralization?

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
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