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Topic: Tornado cash and others mixers (Read 491 times)

legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 22, 2023, 12:38:16 PM
#46
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
They just get a fine and move on. In The Netherlands, banks process €16 billion criminal money per year. ING paid a €775 million fine 5 years ago, ABN AMRO €480 million 2 years ago. The Dutch government still owns 56.3% of the latter. How ironic is that?

Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
This is literally what CoinJoin wallet Wasabi did. See Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread.

Quote
Zo had een klant van ABN AMRO, die de laagste risicoclassificatie had gekregen, voor 49 van zijn vennootschappen tussen 2014 en 2018 in totaal 192 bankrekeningen geopend bij ABN AMRO. Deze rekeningen waren grotendeels inactief. Deze klant pleegde fiscale fraude waardoor hij bijna 200.000 euro van de Belastingdienst ontving op de zakelijke rekeningen. Het geld werd door de klant na overboekingen naar zijn privérekeningen bij ABN AMRO grotendeels uitgegeven of contant opgenomen. De risicoclassificatie bleef laag ondanks verschillende signalen en twijfels die er binnen ABN AMRO waren over deze klant. De bank maakte pas melding van ongebruikelijke transacties bij de FIU na aanvang van het strafrechtelijk onderzoek naar deze klant.
I remember these fraud schemes in Russia, when several firms were opened for one person in each region, region and various tax and other fraud schemes were turned. There was no single centralized data base for all regions, subjects, regions of the country, and there were more than 80 of these subjects. I do not remember that banks were responsible for this.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
July 22, 2023, 02:01:01 AM
#45
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
They just get a fine and move on. In The Netherlands, banks process €16 billion criminal money per year. ING paid a €775 million fine 5 years ago, ABN AMRO €480 million 2 years ago. The Dutch government still owns 56.3% of the latter. How ironic is that?

Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
This is literally what CoinJoin wallet Wasabi did. See Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 21, 2023, 10:51:02 PM
#44
When you mentioned IP filter, I was thinking if it's the same mixers that makes provision to browse their sites privately with Tor incorporated?
I'm not sure I understood your question correctly, but I was referring to clearnet IP filtering. Stuff like blocking visits from countries or VPN IPs and so on. I do know one or two mixers that do this on their clearnet website but most people can still use ToR to access their services. So yeah, some mixers do recommend users to use ToR and apply IP filtering on their clearnet website.

Well, since they have the power to do it, we cannot say that they haven't freezed an innocent person's account. As I always say, all are sinners in the eyes of the government. They might decide to resurrect your previous sins in order to implicate you presently.
I guess that's true. At the very least you can opt not to use any centralized service if you want to avoid them.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 20, 2023, 07:31:28 AM
#43
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.

Why then make such difficult decisions?
AML provider can independently provide cryptomixer services Smiley
AML provider is a very good business. Companies pay huge amounts of money to these services, but the AML provider is not legally held accountable unless they block criminal coins.
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 277
July 20, 2023, 06:11:31 AM
#42
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
It's likely that no mixer will go such an extra miles to defend themselves when the government comes against them. Apart from the process being expensive as you noted, the mixing company may likely not have customers when people understand how far they go in order to set up their customers.
When you mentioned IP filter, I was thinking if it's the same mixers that makes provision to browse their sites privately with Tor incorporated?

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool
They always do that to criminal cases afaik. I don't think they will freeze people's assets blindly on exchanges, for example. Unless of course, they claim it was related to money laundering or other criminal cases. CMIIW.
Well, since they have the power to do it, we cannot say that they haven't freezed an innocent person's account. As I always say, all are sinners in the eyes of the government. They might decide to resurrect your previous sins in order to implicate you presently.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 20, 2023, 05:09:29 AM
#41
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool
They always do that to criminal cases afaik. I don't think they will freeze people's assets blindly on exchanges, for example. Unless of course, they claim it was related to money laundering or other criminal cases. CMIIW.
copper member
Activity: 2156
Merit: 983
Part of AOBT - English Translator to Indonesia
July 19, 2023, 08:44:01 PM
#40
The US government has also accused many crypto exchanges of this crime. Any crime in the blockchain leaves its traces forever, and therefore the blockchain will work against criminals in time, when experts see all the transactions of criminals.

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool

Like the recent news - https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/07/12/us-government-moves-300m-worth-of-bitcoin-linked-to-silk-road-on-chain-data/
"The U.S. government previously sold 9,861 bitcoin for $216 million in March. Two wallets tagged as belonging to the U.S. government and linked to the Silk Road seizure of crypto have moved over $300 million worth of bitcoin (BTC) in three separate transactions on Wednesday morning, on-chain data shows."

legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 19, 2023, 06:16:53 AM
#39
Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
I guess we can only ask them how they plan to avoid government scrutiny, and if they have a plan to implement a filter or something similar. But then again there is no ideal solution since some customers might get turned off by their rules. There is also a potential for abuse since we can't easily dispute their claims if they decide our funds are "tainted" and unsafe to mix. I guess people should realize that everything is never gonna be safe and plan accordingly or use other tools if they can't find any good mixer for their purpose.
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 4002
July 19, 2023, 06:15:03 AM
#38
Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
CM admin's data was obtained from data he provided to Binance so they are cooperating with the authorities whose preferred option is always Chainalysis. Chainalysis runs Electrum servers, some CoinJoin mixes, collaborates with Wasabi and with some wallets/hardware wallets, explorers, almost impossible for the average user not to have data registered on Chainalysis.

Chainalysis and its competitors are always late. After opening a fraudulent scheme or any crime, these services can track the path of money and mark addresses, but most likely the coins will belong to bona fide buyers. And the exchange, unfortunately, may not know that the coins were criminal when they came to the exchange and the AML providers did not respond at that moment.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chainalysis was running a mixing service, as after CM stopped many competitors appeared who could not verify the quality of the mixing service they provide.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 19, 2023, 06:07:07 AM
#37
Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
I guess we can only ask them how they plan to avoid government scrutiny, and if they have a plan to implement a filter or something similar. But then again there is no ideal solution since some customers might get turned off by their rules. There is also a potential for abuse since we can't easily dispute their claims if they decide our funds are "tainted" and unsafe to mix. I guess people should realize that everything is never gonna be safe and plan accordingly or use other tools if they can't find any good mixer for their purpose.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 19, 2023, 05:38:30 AM
#36
I confirm, Bitzlato wasn't an exchange

Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"

Do you see how it's funny? Binance is a customer of Chainalysis for years Cheesy
(as well Gemini, Gov., and many others)

bad business etiquette is always the kind of excuse he likes to uses when it doesn't fit his agenda.
Why still pay a company if they think it has a bad business etiquette? it's like saying that your baker is an asshole but you're still going to buy your bread from him

Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
Chainalysis and its competitors are always late. After opening a fraudulent scheme or any crime, these services can track the path of money and mark addresses, but most likely the coins will belong to bona fide buyers. And the exchange, unfortunately, may not know that the coins were criminal when they came to the exchange and the AML providers did not respond at that moment.
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 277
July 18, 2023, 09:16:12 AM
#35
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
Mixer with KYC is a crazy idea that cannot sell. It is just like telling someone to submit their data to you for you to help them hide their data. Just that your data in your hand is not safe, it is only safe in miners hands. Even exchanges are loosing customers because of KYC, let alone mixers.

Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
hero member
Activity: 2114
Merit: 619
July 16, 2023, 02:27:03 PM
#34
Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
It is surely not alone. There are a lot of mixers that have come under the radar of different governments around the globe. Even Chipmixer was recently shut allegedly for money laundering and also a few years back bitmixer themselves shut their services of bitcoin mixing. These companies know that governments would never want anonymous transaction and anything making them anonymous will be busted sooner or later.
copper member
Activity: 2940
Merit: 4101
Top Crypto Casino
July 16, 2023, 12:14:05 PM
#33
I confirm, Bitzlato wasn't an exchange

Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"

Do you see how it's funny? Binance is a customer of Chainalysis for years Cheesy
(as well Gemini, Gov., and many others)

bad business etiquette is always the kind of excuse he likes to uses when it doesn't fit his agenda.
Why still pay a company if they think it has a bad business etiquette? it's like saying that your baker is an asshole but you're still going to buy your bread from him

Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 16, 2023, 03:52:01 AM
#32
Binance and Bitzlato, a lot of btc passed between the two exchanges. In fact, Binance has not been asking its customers for a KYC for so long. So it was quite easy to get anything through quite easily. There are many articles about this.

Quote
Crypto giant Binance processed almost $346 million in bitcoin for the Bitzlato digital currency exchange, whose founder was arrested by U.S. authorities last week for allegedly running a "money laundering engine," blockchain data seen by Reuters show.

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/binance-moved-346-mln-seized-crypto-exchange-bitzlato-data-show-2023-01-24/

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

https://www.amlintelligence.com/2023/06/binance-under-investigation-in-france-for-money-laundering

(...)

If people don't know Bitzlato, there are now a lot of articles about it, and therefore in particular the links with Binance.

But hey, it's really not just in crypto that there is money laundering, it shouldn't represent much compared to the laundering carried out by the banks...
"During this period, Binance processed transactions totalling at least $2.35 billion stemming from hacks, investment frauds and illegal drug sales, Reuters calculated from an examination of court records, statements by law enforcement and blockchain data, compiled for the news agency by two blockchain analysis firms. Two industry experts reviewed the calculation and agreed with the estimate.

Separately, crypto researcher Chainalysis, hired by U.S. government agencies to track illegal flows, concluded in a 2020 report that Binance received criminal funds totalling $770 million in 2019 alone, more than any other crypto exchange. Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

__
I have said this many times, that any crypto exchange can be blamed for such violations, but this is rarely talked about in the news.
hero member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 775
July 15, 2023, 08:13:39 PM
#31
Binance and Bitzlato, a lot of btc passed between the two exchanges. In fact, Binance has not been asking its customers for a KYC for so long. So it was quite easy to get anything through quite easily. There are many articles about this.

Quote
Crypto giant Binance processed almost $346 million in bitcoin for the Bitzlato digital currency exchange, whose founder was arrested by U.S. authorities last week for allegedly running a "money laundering engine," blockchain data seen by Reuters show.

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/binance-moved-346-mln-seized-crypto-exchange-bitzlato-data-show-2023-01-24/

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

https://www.amlintelligence.com/2023/06/binance-under-investigation-in-france-for-money-laundering

(...)

If people don't know Bitzlato, there are now a lot of articles about it, and therefore in particular the links with Binance.

But hey, it's really not just in crypto that there is money laundering, it shouldn't represent much compared to the laundering carried out by the banks...
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 15, 2023, 04:06:27 AM
#30
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
True, a lot of people would not use a mixer that explicitly or found to be working with a government/somebody else that collects their data. They'd probably choose a coinjoin or another mixer asap. I've never heard about Bitlato exchange. How did they work as a mixer if they are an exchange, to begin with? A quick search seems to suggest that the founder basically run an unregistered service and facilitate money laundering practice for blacklisted business etc. CMIIW.
read the news
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64322576
__
Bitzlato was not an exchange, it was a large peer-to-peer exchange that had contracts with AML licensed services. But for some reason news sites do not write about this anywhere.
They were not lucky because they are Russians, one founder was arrested in the USA, the second is now in Russia, but it is dangerous for him to leave the country.
AML services do not give any guarantees, they charge a lot of money for services, but in the contract they write that they do not guarantee the result..
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 14, 2023, 07:32:26 AM
#29
I also agree with you that the later was the case with chipmixer which shows that they somehow deviated from their statement years after. I also do not think that what happened to chipmixer was just one particular incident. It seems that they have done it so many times and they have been in the bad book of the government for many years without their knowledge. When the evidences were so glaring,  FBI had to strike.
They will be investigated sooner or later even if they don't mix any coins from hackers etc imo. A nonregistered service in the eye of the government will be classified as suspicious even if the data about them is so scarce. I guess that's just the risk of running a mixing service.

Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
True, a lot of people would not use a mixer that explicitly or found to be working with a government/somebody else that collects their data. They'd probably choose a coinjoin or another mixer asap. I've never heard about Bitlato exchange. How did they work as a mixer if they are an exchange, to begin with? A quick search seems to suggest that the founder basically run an unregistered service and facilitate money laundering practice for blacklisted business etc. CMIIW.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 4715
July 13, 2023, 12:38:10 PM
#28
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 277
July 13, 2023, 06:15:35 AM
#27
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
I also agree with you that the later was the case with chipmixer which shows that they somehow deviated from their statement years after. I also do not think that what happened to chipmixer was just one particular incident. It seems that they have done it so many times and they have been in the bad book of the government for many years without their knowledge. When the evidences were so glaring,  FBI had to strike.
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