Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW. 
Topic: Tornado cash and others mixers - page 2. (Read 491 times)
There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc).
There is truly no perfect solution. Any mixer leaking the people's information to the government is digging their graves because the people are the customer and it is for the purpose of same privacy the people run to mixers. Why betray them?
Bitcoin mixers.Interview 06.2020 (EN)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
4 question
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?
ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?
MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."
FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?
ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?
MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."
FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
__
But the owners of the mixer risk a very large prison term for their activities, so if there is a choice between cooperation with the authorities, then any criminal will cooperate. He doesn't want to go to jail for life.
All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others? How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possible?
Your question is like asking why is the US government attacking only Binance and Coinbase. They can only sue a firm if they have evidence that they committed a crime. SEC is attacking these exchanges now because they have proof that Binance and Coinbase violated the financial laws of the US. Other exchanges might not be clean but the government has not gotten substantial evidence to come for them. Generally, the US government has been hostile to crypto-related businesses, so this attack on Tornado Cash can be politically or economically motivated. Mixers are giving a worthy service to the crypto community but some criminals can also take advantage of it. After all government officials and others also use the banks to launder illegal funds to tax havens and shell companies.
There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc).
There is truly no perfect solution. Any mixer leaking the people's information to the government is digging their graves because the people are the customer and it is for the purpose of same privacy the people run to mixers. Why betray them?
Bitcoin mixers.Interview 06.2020 (EN)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
4 question
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?
ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?
MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."
FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?
ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?
MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."
FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers. I've seen mixers on this forum that have been shut down by the secret services and it doesn't look like a collaboration.But I have not seen any evidence of cooperation between the misers that we have in this forum with governments.
It rather means an environment where the government is less concerned on what happens in the mixers.
Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen. The government will always try to control every mixing service for their own purpose, so unless the mixer works together with them I doubt they'll be free from scrutiny.Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
That's true, which is why I doubt it will be effective to begin with. I'm not even sure it will give them enough legal loopholes if they don't filter funds on their own, which brings another issue with potential users leaving them if they do that. There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc). It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.
and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
The US government has also accused many crypto exchanges of this crime. Any crime in the blockchain leaves its traces forever, and therefore the blockchain will work against criminals in time, when experts see all the transactions of criminals.and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
But the trial has only just begun, let's wish Alexei Pertsev patience.
there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.
and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too. Tornado cash is considered an offense by the US Department of the Treasury for money laundering. Seems like all the money laundering accusations are always attached to the mixing company. Tornadocash is reported to have laundered $7 billion.
Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash
Invariably all mixers are stained. They have sinned in one way or the other in the eyes of the government. They are all lambs in the alter of sacrifice. It is a matter of whose turn to be sacrificed and not the reason to be sacrificed. Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
Hello,
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
One of the many reasons is US officials has lit this specific BTC mixer on their sanction list while others are not on the sanction list so they are investigating Tornado not others.I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
The second reason is, they are investigating Tornado mixer for like 3 years and they have theories that said it has been used to launder $7 billion. Which make the mixer most wanted among others. I can see on a news that they are investigating this case from quite some time but one of the founder caught by the Dutch law forces.
I am also speculating another mixer which is being promoted on this platform. After the last one was seized by official. I do not want to mention the name but I have read some reports from quite some time and I think official will shift their interest toward that mixer too.
The point is when the officials will have something in their hands to capture anyone involved in laundering then they will proceed until they cannot make any step that's why they are catching the ones who may be involved in Tornado but they are not catching those on whom they have nothing in their hands. Like proofs.
Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.
Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues
https://twitter.com/blockblanc/status/1648998168527360001?
"Next Wednesday 26th, he can await his trial at home with electronic monitoring.
The most important thing is that he can walk around and work on his defense, something that was virtually impossible while detained."
https://decrypt.co/137355/dutch-court-agrees-to-free-tornado-cash-dev-alex-pertsev-pending-trial
The criminal case will not end soon
https://decrypt.co/142239/tornado-cash-developer-alexey-pertsev-question-chainalysis
Tornado Cash Developer Can Question Chainalysis at Trial, Says Judge
The court granted Pertsev permission to question Chainalysis about its methods, albeit in writing, because of the role its data played in his arrest.
[....]It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
No straightforward declaration that the service is illegal but I think all mixers are included in the watchlist of various Government organizations so that's basically saying there's a target on their back. Keep in mind that there were a lot of mixers that were seized prior to the Tornado Cash sanction.I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
It's not that banks launder the money. It's banks that doesn't have strong security measures against money laundering and uncooperative that are usually sanctioned. Hello,
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
Tornado cash was a large and well-known project and the blow to such a project was a signal for the entire crypto industry. The development team was not very smart not to understand all the legal implications of such a project and that hackers and criminals would use it. But the same accusations can be made against any major project. I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
The problem is not about the mixers but tornado cash involvements in series of crime related offenses already known by many people, have you considered betterqual mixer to mention few from the recent ones, they were targeted while we have other mixers not targeted because they have never been found in such mess before, there's alot to discuss when it comes to integrity, trust and reputation which tornado cash was found lacking behind, now we should know more about who are the developers behind their operations and what security measures have they taken against their system hack before this happened.
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
They were targeted when they became bigger and more money laundered on their platform. Especially when the Lazarus Group laundered stolen cryptocurrency on Tornado Cash, they were more seriously chased by governments.Why did the US Treasury sanction Tornado Cash?
Quote
According to the Treasury, Tornado Cash has laundered approximately $7 billion in cryptocurrency since its inception in 2019. The laundered assets include $445 million hacked by the Lazarus Group, a well-known North Korean hacker group subject to US penalties. The group was previously tied to the $625 million Ronin Network and $100 million Horizon Bridge hacks.
Quote
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
Tornado cash was based in the Netherlands. Chipmixer was based in Vietnam. Both of these countries will comply with whatever the United States wants them to do. Both of these mixers were used by North Korean hackers so they had a big target on their back from U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. was not going to allow these mixers to provide their service to a country that they see as an enemy, allowing them to bypass their sanctions.
If that's true, I wonder how long will Sinbad mixer will last, it's also used by north korean hackers however the dev is quite confident of his anonymity.
Quote
As for whether Mehdi himself might be identified, indicted, arrested, or sanctioned, he told WIRED he remains relatively confident about his own fate. He shared a long list of cryptocurrency mixing services on the forum BitcoinTalk, pointing out that relatively few have faced those outcomes. "It would be silly not to worry about it at all. I take all the necessary precautions to protect my anonymity," he wrote—notably, prior to Elliptic's revelation that Sinbad and Blender may be connected—but he added that "I expect to remain part of the market and not become one of the unfortunate exceptions."
— SourceIn my view, all crypto mixers are always getting a red flag observation by the government most especially coming from USA regulatory bodies. Though there is always a debate on the importance of mixers and how they can also be utilized by non-illegal means, there is no question that when you are hiding something then we can assume that there can be something wrong, that is aside from claim of privacy, of course. Now, I have not used any mixer in the past and I don't I will ever use one. I think Tornado Cash was targeted because of the claims it was heavily used by hackers and scammers and we have to admit it that mixers are accepting business irregardless of the source of funds and they usually do not ask who their customers are.
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