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Topic: Trust flags - page 7. (Read 12939 times)

legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3878
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
July 23, 2019, 07:48:49 AM
~snip~

Yes, but as I mentioned  "for newbies who do not understand how the trust system works (It's quite complicated) that may cause some confusion"
Very true and this is exactly what I meant when I said opportunity.

It's not only newbies, we will find a lot of regular members who are not regular in meta, reputation board - they have less chances to understand how the flag voting system works.
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 278
July 23, 2019, 07:45:43 AM
So it's assumable these are not necessarily need to come from DTs. They can create accounts and can oppose the flags which are indeed useless if they do so LOL

Yes, but as I mentioned "For newbies who do not understand how the trust system works (It's quite complicated) that may cause some confusion" For example: 5 support votes from DT members and 30 from high ranked accounts not DT members. That will look very strange for newbies and even for other members who are not familiar with the system and who does not know what is DT. There are a lot of such profiles here.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3878
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
July 23, 2019, 07:36:09 AM
~snip~

If that service is actually legit, which i highly doubt in the first place-- it's totally useless.
There's no way 15 DT members are actually going to sell their integrity for 1.7$ per vote. And to think they hacked 15 dt members is laughable.

Either their votes are from useless accounts, or the service is fake. it won't matter nor impact the system either way.
It did not say any DT, it said "from senior members and above"

Quote
I saw a scammy service in telegram, offering opposition for flags. $25 for 15 oppose notes from senior members and above. I just wanted to mention that scammers can use that service.

So it's assumable these are not necessarily need to come from DTs. They can create accounts and can oppose the flags which are indeed useless if they do so LOL
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 278
July 23, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
If that service is actually legit, which i highly doubt in the first place-- it's totally useless.
There's no way 15 DT members are actually going to sell their integrity for 1.7$ per vote. And to think they hacked 15 dt members is laughable.
Either their votes are from useless accounts, or the service is fake. it won't matter nor impact the system either way.


It is not legit. But for newbies who do not understand how the trust system works (It's quite complicated) that may cause some confusion. All  that scammy services are coming mainly from Russian threads here on bitcointalk. Bumping service, Accounts trading, Youbit buy walls, E.t.c...
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1427
July 23, 2019, 07:30:21 AM
Anyone can support/oppose flags.
However, only the trusted votes count.
And trusted votes are defined by your trust settings.
If you didn't touch your trustlist (which you definitely should do), DT1 and DT2 votes count only (big bold font).


I saw a scammy service in telegram, offering opposition for flags. $25 for 15 oppose notes from senior members and above. I just wanted to mention that scammers can use that service.

If that service is actually legit, which i highly doubt in the first place-- it's totally useless.
There's no way 15 DT members are actually going to sell their integrity for 1.7$ per vote. And to think they hacked 15 dt members is laughable.

Either their votes are from useless accounts, or the service is fake. it won't matter nor impact the system either way.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3878
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
July 23, 2019, 07:25:44 AM

I saw a scammy service in telegram, offering opposition for flags. $25 for 15 oppose notes from senior members and above. I just wanted to mention that scammers can use that service.
LOL amazing service.

Honestly speaking, scammers will try to take very opportunity to earn money from scamming. It's us who need to understand how something works when we are intending to buy any service. We have seen the rumors of selling merits, trust feedback etc. So, let's put it this way - it's the continuation :-P
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 278
July 23, 2019, 07:18:32 AM
Anyone can support/oppose flags.
However, only the trusted votes count.
And trusted votes are defined by your trust settings.
If you didn't touch your trustlist (which you definitely should do), DT1 and DT2 votes count only (big bold font).


I saw a scammy service in telegram, offering opposition for flags. $25 for 15 oppose notes from senior members and above. I just wanted to mention that scammers can use that service.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
July 23, 2019, 06:14:25 AM
If newbies are opposing flag, will that count ? Anyone can oppose the flag ?

Anyone can support/oppose flags.

However, only the trusted votes count.
And trusted votes are defined by your trust settings.

If you didn't touch your trustlist (which you definitely should do), DT1 and DT2 votes count only (big bold font).
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 278
July 23, 2019, 05:17:00 AM
If newbies are opposing flag, will that count ? Anyone can oppose the flag ?
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
July 23, 2019, 05:14:26 AM
Old
Quote
   Positive - You trust this person or had a successful trade.
    Neutral - Comments. Your rating will not affect this person's trust score.
    Negative - You were scammed or you strongly believe that this person is a scammer.

New
Quote
   Positive - You think that this person is unlikely to scam anyone.
    Neutral - Other comments.
    Negative - You think that trading with this person is high-risk. You might also be able to add a flag.

Until now, I only focused on the changed description for Negative feedback and didn't really notice how Positive changed. I used to use my non-DT1 account to leave feedback on successful deals, but under the current description, I can't do that anymore.

I hadn't noticed it either, but it's a good change.  Common sense would suggest that one single trade isn't sufficient for positive trust.  A scammer could easily make one legitimate trade to gain trust before attempting to rip several people off, exploiting their new-found reputation.  It should take time to build up trust, making numerous trades without issue.  Neutral feedback is perfectly adequate for acknowledging individual successful trades.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
July 23, 2019, 01:56:37 AM
In that case, many positive feedback must be withdrawn which has been posted before the change.
I'm not changing feedback that was correct according to the "rules" when I left it.

Quote
I have added a positive feedback on Royse777, because he had created two pool and donated some amounts into the pool pot. Is my positive feedback correct on that case?
I wouldn't worry about it too much. You're not on DT, and if you believe it was correct when you left it, you should still be able to stand behind your feedback now.
The accuracy of the feedback is like your "Trust business card". Based on this, other members can include (or exclude) you on their Trust list (see my Trust list viewer), which may or may not mean you'll end up on DT at some point.
sr. member
Activity: 1372
Merit: 322
July 23, 2019, 01:41:43 AM
Until now, I only focused on the changed description for Negative feedback and didn't really notice how Positive changed. I used to use my non-DT1 account to leave feedback on successful deals, but under the current description, I can't do that anymore.
In that case, many positive feedback must be withdrawn which has been posted before the change. I have added a positive feedback on Royse777, because he had created two pool and donated some amounts into the pool pot. Is my positive feedback correct on that case?
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
July 23, 2019, 01:36:38 AM
Until now, I only focused on the changed description for Negative feedback and didn't really notice how Positive changed. I used to use my non-DT1 account to leave feedback on successful deals, but under the current description, I can't do that anymore.
Someone making many trades without issue is usually an indication they will not scam, however additional information is needed to make this determination.

A neutral rating would probably be more appropriate for a single successful trade, and perhaps several successful trades (that appear to be mutually beneficial) would warrant consideration of giving a positive rating, and a person unexpectedly being able to scam you (due to your mistake), but doesn't is probably going to warrant a positive rating most of the time, but good judgement should still be used in these cases.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
July 23, 2019, 01:24:31 AM
This post (in another topic) made me realize the description for Positive feedback change too:
That is not the purpose of the trust system. The purpose of giving a positive rating is to vouch that the person is unlikely to scam period, there are no 'ifs thans or buts'.

Old
Quote
   Positive - You trust this person or had a successful trade.
    Neutral - Comments. Your rating will not affect this person's trust score.
    Negative - You were scammed or you strongly believe that this person is a scammer.

New
Quote
   Positive - You think that this person is unlikely to scam anyone.
    Neutral - Other comments.
    Negative - You think that trading with this person is high-risk. You might also be able to add a flag.

Until now, I only focused on the changed description for Negative feedback and didn't really notice how Positive changed. I used to use my non-DT1 account to leave feedback on successful deals, but under the current description, I can't do that anymore.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
July 19, 2019, 03:37:14 PM
TLDR: There is currently a hole in the flag system that does not allow you to report one sided damage done such as theft. Another example, if I just throw a metaphorical baseball through your metaphorical window, there is nothing you can do about it because I onesidedly damaged you, there was no contract to breach, so you can't flag me.
That is correct.

Quote
On my honor, I affirm the following:
1) This user violated a written contract/(a casual/implied agreement - flag type 2), resulting in damages;
2) I have not been made whole by the user;
3) no existing flag covers this same incident;
4) this incident is accurately and completely described in the above topic;
5) the incident occurred roughly in the month given above.

If only 1 of these 5 things is not valid user can't create flag type 2 or 3. Not only that, user can't create flag type 2 or 3 on the behalf of another user. Case we were arguing about, user "A" created red flag against bob123 and then account which user A's friend tried to sell created flag against user "A" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=322 That is all they can do, to create newbie/guest flag.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
July 19, 2019, 03:14:53 PM
Forgot to follow up on this

Actually something good did come out of arguing with people of a mindset that I don't understand. I came to the realization, that if I (for the sake of example) sent someone malware and stole their Bitcoins off of their computer, they could not flag me. You don't enter into a contract to be one sidedly stolen from or financially damaged. There are currently loopholes for realistic scenarios that we should sure up.

If you sent someone a link to malware via PM or a message on the open forum, you will be permabanned if the victim reports it to staff. Issuing a flag to a permabanned account is a bit redundant.

Also, issuing a red flag is rather punitive. Theymos set the bar high to issue this flag since it is very harsh. Please see the following thread for the full impact of a red flag. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/0007-loan-by-tomorrow-122019-evening-utc-5104698 We must ask ourselves if the infraction merits an account being subjected to the red flag for 3 years for level 2 and 7 years for level 1. Sometimes a yellow flag and/or a negative trust comment is more appropriate.

I was more trying to propose the idea that theft is not something that you can leave someone a flag for. Lets change it up a little bit to avoid the issue of forum bans. If I send malware to someone over Skype and steal all of their Bitcoins, you cannot leave me a flag and I don't have to worry about being banned. I know that Theymos is trying to sure up the language surrounding flags with the "breach of contract" portion, but not everything is a contract.

Use the following to red flag someone that malwared you.
This user violated a casual or implied agreement with me, resulting in damages.

It is an implied agreement between decent people not to steal from one another, so you can use the above.  IMO.  Smiley
(You do need to be able to prove the theft occurred and the other party was responsible. )


This actually is my point, rational thinking people would agree with you. To interact with society, there is an unspoken rule that you don't steal from others. But, I've already seen cases where people have tried to weasel their way out of guilt by sticking firmly to the, "there was no contract" defense.


TLDR: There is currently a hole in the flag system that does not allow you to report one sided damage done such as theft. Another example, if I just throw a metaphorical baseball through your metaphorical window, there is nothing you can do about it because I onesidedly damaged you, there was no contract to breach, so you can't flag me.
legendary
Activity: 3696
Merit: 2219
💲🏎️💨🚓
July 18, 2019, 08:32:31 PM
creepy how he's stalking me from one thread to the next
Have you followed me here to say that I am stalking you?

No, moron. I posted three posts prior to you.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
July 18, 2019, 03:56:38 PM
creepy how he's stalking me from one thread to the next
Have you followed me here to say that I am stalking you?

Somebody feel free to PM @theymos to come have a look at this thread
timelord said someone should contact theymos to look thread and I don't think this system will work if we will call theymos for every single flag so I am using this opportunity to invite other valuable members to join discussion and share opinions about flags
So you don't want to hear other opinions? I do.

his duplicate Flag
It is not my fault that you don't want to accept reasonable explanation why this flag is valid, the same way you don't want to except why QS's flag is valid. Perhaps you need more than 2 confirmation that flag is not duplicate?
legendary
Activity: 3696
Merit: 2219
💲🏎️💨🚓
July 18, 2019, 01:19:25 AM
[Archive]

I am trying to have some nice ad hominem conversation with timelord here and he said "yes, yes, you are wrong, I am right" and then I said "no no no, you are wrong and I am right" and timelord said someone should contact theymos to look thread and I don't think this system will work if we will call theymos for every single flag so I am using this opportunity to invite other valuable members to join discussion and share opinions about flags

Punctuation marks soon.

User timelord https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/timelord-62044 hasn't been online in seven years and four days...



marlboroza's attacks aside: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/for-the-record-an-ad-hominem-is-not-a-valid-argument-43685 [Archive] creepy how he's stalking me from one thread to the next to try to bully me into changing my opposition to his duplicate Flag ... [Archive]

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2272
July 17, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
I am trying to have some nice ad hominem conversation with timelord here and he said "yes, yes, you are wrong, I am right" and then I said "no no no, you are wrong and I am right" and timelord said someone should contact theymos to look thread and I don't think this system will work if we will call theymos for every single flag so I am using this opportunity to invite other valuable members to join discussion and share opinions about flags

Punctuation marks soon.
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