UK banks' innovation render bitcoin pointless (?) - page 2.

Hopalong

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Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 10:13:51 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 10:00:39 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:44:50 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

then simply use a multisig, so you do not need to trust anyone, they can't run with the money, and you're safe like with a bank, which i find less safe nowayd due to high probability of bankruptcy

also if you can't trust no one, then you should not trust bank either, they are the first thieves

I would not trust any bank out there but my bank has 120 years history and i can check their liquidy. You do check out someone before trusting them? If a bank does not produce a solid income you move your money right away.

Sorry to disapoint you but i dont see bitcoin as usefull at all when compared with real currencys. As a paypal killer it would work but way to cumbersome for day to day use.

Amph

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Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 10:00:39 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:44:50 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

then simply use a multisig, so you do not need to trust anyone, they can't run with the money, and you're safe like with a bank, which i find less safe nowayd due to high probability of bankruptcy

also if you can't trust no one, then you should not trust bank either, they are the first thieves

LiteCoinGuy

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Activity: 1148

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In Satoshi I Trust

Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:29:07 AM

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

disagree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nOfHpOFhN8

Hopalong

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:53:34 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:44:50 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

There is no trusted member on this forum. It is a buch of anonymous kids buying and selling accounts. I would never trust anyone here.

If normal people need an escrow they want to know who it is and be sure he has no criminal record. That will not be free.

Amph

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:44:50 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

you cna have something like open bazar where escrow will work for free, it's not like you need plenty of time to be an escrow, you cna do it occasionally, in this forum for example there are many escrow that do not ask for anything for their job

you can start from trusted member here on bitcointalk

Hopalong

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 09:40:41 AM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

And where do you find a escrow? If someone start up a escrow business they will have to register and do background check on all employees. That will cost money and we get even higher fees than we have today.

Amph

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

Quote from: Hopalong on August 04, 2015, 09:25:46 AM

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

yeah i know it's a form of warranty, but it's a double edge in the end, many maybe are not accepting bitcoin because of this exact reason and many other look at the opposite

the difference is bitcoin can actually solve both problem with escrow and multisig, with bank you have no choice, you're forced to follow their rules

Hopalong

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:29:07 AM

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

Had this for years in some countries and it seems like young people use this more than cash when exchanging money. Still not compatible over borders but as soon as they fix that and make sure you dont pay fees it will take off.

So we have bank transfer without fees, credit/debit card without fees and mobil pay without fees. Only missing a way to trade currencys for free now.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

They're trying to convince the average guy that there is no benefit to using any other system. Whether or not that's true is immaterial. Bitcoin is doing a lot of good right now worldwide because it's making the current system more competitive. At some point in the future, when we no longer need fiat banks or exchanges that trade with banks, Bitcoin can do the things you all mention. Currently, users need to exchange btc for fiat to cover at least some of their monthly expenses. When enough people are paid entirely in Bitcoin, pay their mortgage, lights, gas and water in Bitcoin and buy their groceries in Bitcoin then we can have a revolution. Today all we have is a skirmish.

Hopalong

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Normal people want to have chargeback since it is the only way you know that a merchant will send you what you have payd for. No bank or payment system made for mainstream use can work without chargeback.

QuintLeo

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Big issue with that - the "IOS" part.

The large majority of folks have ZERO INTEREST in wasting money on overpriced Apple stuff, which massively limits the applicability of this "innovation".

Plus the other points folks have already raised about "what about international" etc

Kazimir

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Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:29:07 AM

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

Disagree.

I still read "bank" (i.e. staying dependent on them) in every sentence. The whole point is we don't need banks anymore.
Also, "in the UK" is a very limited field of play. This is 2015, we have the internet now, countries / regions / borders / etc should be no longer relevant. It's the old fashioned banking and payment system that is still imposing these restrictions on us.

But even worse is the fact that, despite these "innovations", banks can still create money out of thin air. And continue to do so. If people would actually understand how this sytem works, everybody could draw the conclusion that his is modern form of slavery: they do effectively nothing, we work our entire life to pay rent on money they created at the press of a button.

If the postal services would innovate and deliver letters within one hour, free of charge, would people still be using email?

For money, all these middle men or 3rd parties or service providers are no longer necessary, and definitely no longer desirable.

franky1

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Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:29:07 AM

UK banks now enable, with most recent IOS apps:
- moving money from bank to bank effectively instantly (no fees).
- move money to a mobile number, using Paym, bank - > mobile number www.paym.co.uk (I think no fees)
- enable Apple pay sync (no fees)

I find it very hard to see how bitcoin can become further adopted in the UK given these and other advances. Moloch has rumbled, Moloch has delivered. Anyone disagree?

quoting a UK service is a moot point. UK banks have for years offered fast payment services. moving funds from one bank account to another has never been a problem for hobby amounts (under £10k) between english banks..

what bitcoin solves is this:
international movements instantly
no chargebacks
no requirement of central storage providers (banks)
no risk of third parties taxing you without consent
no risk of bank insolvency /bailouts
store as much as you want without question
transfer as much as you want without question
no need for account application forms, id or being declined an account

"give a homeless man a bank application form. and he will starve waiting... give the man a QR code and he can instantly earn a living"

polychenko

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-£250 daily limit - only for paying people without 2FA. For 2FA contacts, I don't think there is a limit.

-yes, clearly moving money around is already business. What I mean is that currently it is not as easy as bitcoin, and arguably more expensive in some cases. However if there was larger demand for this in the UK then I'd expect the larger banks to start competing on this basis, incorportating them into the app. This has already happened with UK-UK money transfers. Paying for coffee etc by bitcoin unlikely in this context

-banks and other things been used to launder money. The arguments from people like Piketty is that these should be monitered in a transparent way. How does a semi anonymous (or fully anonymous) online currency help this?

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: criptix on August 04, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

you know how the rich and criminals in the real world hide and launder their money right?
i guess you dont so i will tell you how:
through your lovely banks

Exactly. People easily launder money by buying worthless art for hundreds of millions. Here's a fine example that was sold for $46 million.

Quote from: criptix on August 04, 2015, 07:02:49 AM

do i understand correct that you are saying there is only little demand for international banking/money transfer? o.O

He did state that by saying that moving money will be easier once the demand is there. This is obviously completely incorrect due to the fact that companies such as Western Union are doing good business.

Quote from: GODLIKE on August 04, 2015, 07:31:22 AM

Don't worry: when finally the fiat currency bubble will explode, they will learn Cheesy

Well, not quite. If the dollar collapses we will have bigger problems to worry about than proving who was right.

Quote from: maku on August 04, 2015, 07:38:39 AM

They? Or everyone else. Because financial elites never learns. It is us - real people - who suffers the most from crisis usually.
I understand that this new feature of UK banks are honey for normal people who don't know what bitcoin is and how it can change the world.
I find it quite dangerous for bitcoin popularity as people like op have little idea about economic state of our world.

Well this is why awareness needs to be spread and people involved with Bitcoin need to help with the adoption. How many times do the banks have to rob the people until they realize what's going on?

maku

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Quote from: GODLIKE on August 04, 2015, 07:31:22 AM

Quote from: Lauda on August 04, 2015, 06:35:14 AM

Here we go again. I should start hunting people and stapling this to their face.
One of the fundamental ideas of Bitcoin is the separation of state and money; i.e. this means that if you want to get out of the current corrupted financial system, then Bitcoin is your way out.

Don't worry: when finally the fiat currency bubble will explode, they will learn Cheesy

They? Or everyone else. Because financial elites never learns. It is us - real people - who suffers the most from crisis usually.
I understand that this new feature of UK banks are honey for normal people who don't know what bitcoin is and how it can change the world.
I find it quite dangerous for bitcoin popularity as people like op have little idea about economic state of our world.

GODLIKE

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LOL what you looking at?

Quote from: Lauda on August 04, 2015, 06:35:14 AM

Here we go again. I should start hunting people and stapling this to their face.
One of the fundamental ideas of Bitcoin is the separation of state and money; i.e. this means that if you want to get out of the current corrupted financial system, then Bitcoin is your way out.

Don't worry: when finally the fiat currency bubble will explode, they will learn Cheesy

criptix

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Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:50:54 AM

Quote from: Lauda on August 04, 2015, 06:35:14 AM

Here we go again. I should start hunting people and stapling this to their face.
One of the fundamental ideas of Bitcoin is the separation of state and money; i.e. this means that if you want to get out of the current corrupted financial system, then Bitcoin is your way out.

Try moving that same money from China to the US to see just how instant that process is. Bitcoin is the sole reason for which they are going to try and implement such services. They are afraid that it will ruin them (i.e. we're in that phase now).
Basically the government is still going to track what you're doing with your money and has the right to take it (see Cyprus and Greece) as they please.

Please provide us with the links to these 'recent apps', so that I can do a close inspection.

http://personal.natwest.com/personal/ways-to-bank-with-us1/mobile-banking/mobile-payments.html

I agree with some of the stuff about problems with the banks. However I'm not a fan of the mega wealthy being able to hide their wealth away - see piketty's rationale for greater wealth transparency.

Separate to the above is the practical use cases for Bitcoin which we have to try to analyse objectively. I doubt this internally in the UK now. Add on the ~5% fiat->BTC fees and it gets worse. Moving money abroad will become easier if there is a sufficient demand for it.

you know how the rich and criminals in the real world hide and launder their money right?
i guess you dont so i will tell you how:

through your lovely banks

*edit

do i understand correct that you are saying there is only little demand for international banking/money transfer? o.O

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: polychenko on August 04, 2015, 06:50:54 AM

http://personal.natwest.com/personal/ways-to-bank-with-us1/mobile-banking/mobile-payments.html

I agree with some of the stuff about problems with the banks. However I'm not a fan of the mega wealthy being able to hide their wealth away - see piketty's rationale for greater wealth transparency.

Separate to the above is the practical use cases for Bitcoin which we have to try to analyse objectively. I doubt this internally in the UK now. Add on the ~5% fiat->BTC fees and it gets worse. Moving money abroad will become easier if there is a sufficient demand for it.

Quote from: Amph on August 04, 2015, 06:54:45 AM

-snip-
not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

For anyone who is smart, that should not be a problem.

Bitcoin is not just a means of payments, nor just a currency. Bitcoin is a revolution.

Amph

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Activity: 3248

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there is one thing that bank will not replicate ever and this is the only thing that makes bitcoin vastly better, decentralization and the full control over your wealth

not to mention charge back of 180 days, bitcoin is instant too but at least transaction are irreversible, yet for some this may be considered a bad thing but for many other it isn't

Topic: UK banks' innovation render bitcoin pointless (?) - page 2. (Read 2163 times)