Ukraine president a patriot or a mad man? - page 2.

Mometaskers

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It's not madness to call on your citizens to fight. It's practically their duty (though of course you can't really force them). This is still a better stance than that coward of an Afghan president Ghani that fled even before the Taliban reached Kabul.

Quote from: laredo7mm on February 27, 2022, 07:12:44 AM

It a good leadership from a leader to push his untrained people to certain death. Without any training giving arms to civilians means giving shoes to a tree that can not walk. Don't be so emotional on the battlefield. Be logical or you will only get a mountain of dead bodies. It's zelnesky's shortsightedness that he failed to prevent this situation. He throws his people into an unnecessary war.

Very little time to train since the Russians are already outside Kyiv. This is why I advocate a mandatory training like they do in South Korea. At least your population know how to use equipment.

laredo7mm

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Quote from: D-law on February 27, 2022, 02:14:53 AM

I'm very proud of him, you see that's how it should be at times good leaders lead from behind, but in the situation you need to show your strength and not run from your responsibility.
My countries president won't do this so I think he is my Champion, I think he is the first president I have seen at this.
Hopefully he wins at the end of the day, all of Ukraine fighting for their rights will surely win.

It a good leadership from a leader to push his untrained people to certain death. Without any training giving arms to civilians means giving shoes to a tree that can not walk. Don't be so emotional on the battlefield. Be logical or you will only get a mountain of dead bodies. It's zelnesky's shortsightedness that he failed to prevent this situation. He throws his people into an unnecessary war.

D-law

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I'm very proud of him, you see that's how it should be at times good leaders lead from behind, but in the situation you need to show your strength and not run from your responsibility.
My countries president won't do this so I think he is my Champion, I think he is the first president I have seen at this.
Hopefully he wins at the end of the day, all of Ukraine fighting for their rights will surely win.

af_newbie

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Quote from: cabron on February 26, 2022, 10:11:06 PM

Quote from: coolcoinz on February 26, 2022, 08:28:34 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 08:11:45 PM

Some Russian soldiers are turning back, they don't want to kill innocent civilians.

https://twitter.com/tanjamaier17/status/1497657141422968836

They don't want to participate in this blast from the past 'invasion'.

Kudos to them. Putin is probably losing it just about right now.

Great thing to see. There was a video of people doing the same thing with bigger tanks like T70, also standing in front of them and you could see that Russians did not want to run them over, but were asking them to move and trying to slowly push through the crowd. People are inherently good, just mislead at times, fearful and emotional.

There are some examples of bad people though, like the Chechens who attacked Ukraine for no reason. People who just were fighting with Russia went to kill in its name, but instead got themselves killed just hours after entering Ukraine. insteadhttps://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1497709140549902339

I've read that Putin expected this to take up to 4 days before Zelensky flees and Kiev is taken.

There are several angles in seeing this. Russian Army respects civilians and will not hurt them but arm forces only because they know it's a war crime. Or they will see this as Zelensky using civilians as shields. Or the Russians really are afraid of the babushkas holding riffles. Grin

If the Ukrainian really had bombed and destroyed tanks, that's good then put up a good fight and remove the civilians out there. Before Russian Army will have no choice but to spray bullets at them. Too bad the comedian President believes that NATO will really come to help them.

But once the US will intervene in this war, it's going to be WW3. Europe will not be pretty after that.
I don't think the EU is united to fight against Russia when in fact it's the West and Ukraine that cause this war.

This Soviet regime will be crushed by the civilized world. Sooner or later.
The tragedy is that a lot of innocent Russian soldiers will be killed for no reason other than grand delusions of a short Soviet apparatchik.

Earth to Putin: The year is 2022, not 1972.

cabron

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Quote from: coolcoinz on February 26, 2022, 08:28:34 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 08:11:45 PM

Some Russian soldiers are turning back, they don't want to kill innocent civilians.

https://twitter.com/tanjamaier17/status/1497657141422968836

They don't want to participate in this blast from the past 'invasion'.

Kudos to them. Putin is probably losing it just about right now.

Great thing to see. There was a video of people doing the same thing with bigger tanks like T70, also standing in front of them and you could see that Russians did not want to run them over, but were asking them to move and trying to slowly push through the crowd. People are inherently good, just mislead at times, fearful and emotional.

There are some examples of bad people though, like the Chechens who attacked Ukraine for no reason. People who just were fighting with Russia went to kill in its name, but instead got themselves killed just hours after entering Ukraine. insteadhttps://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1497709140549902339

I've read that Putin expected this to take up to 4 days before Zelensky flees and Kiev is taken.

There are several angles in seeing this. Russian Army respects civilians and will not hurt them but arm forces only because they know it's a war crime. Or they will see this as Zelensky using civilians as shields. Or the Russians really are afraid of the babushkas holding riffles. Grin

If the Ukrainian really had bombed and destroyed tanks, that's good then put up a good fight and remove the civilians out there. Before Russian Army will have no choice but to spray bullets at them. Too bad the comedian President believes that NATO will really come to help them.

But once the US will intervene in this war, it's going to be WW3. Europe will not be pretty after that.
I don't think the EU is united to fight against Russia when in fact it's the West and Ukraine that cause this war.

coolcoinz

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Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 08:11:45 PM

Some Russian soldiers are turning back, they don't want to kill innocent civilians.

https://twitter.com/tanjamaier17/status/1497657141422968836

They don't want to participate in this blast from the past 'invasion'.

Kudos to them. Putin is probably losing it just about right now.

Great thing to see. There was a video of people doing the same thing with bigger tanks like T70, also standing in front of them and you could see that Russians did not want to run them over, but were asking them to move and trying to slowly push through the crowd. People are inherently good, just mislead at times, fearful and emotional.

There are some examples of bad people though, like the Chechens who attacked Ukraine for no reason. People who just were fighting with Russia went to kill in its name, but instead got themselves killed just hours after entering Ukraine. insteadhttps://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1497709140549902339

I've read that Putin expected this to take up to 4 days before Zelensky flees and Kiev is taken.

af_newbie

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Quote from: coolcoinz on February 26, 2022, 07:50:00 PM

Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 07:31:01 AM

Yes, too much false news from ukraniens general and western media. First CNN reported that the Russian navy slaughtered 13 Ukrainian armed personnel from the sneak island but today Russian media shows with proof they are not dead and there were 80 men on that island. Ukrainians are hiding their casualties. I saw a video clip where a full Ukraine convoy was destroyed and soldier flash is burning. Too little news about the actual events.

What about Russians who blocked social media so that people wouldn't spread videos of their equipment being destroyed?
What about a Russian news outlet that showed a list of Russian losses and then deleted everything?

Just watch the videos and pictures, don't focus on written news. You can't fake Russian tanks burning on streets and soldiers standing next to their vehicles that run out of fuel.
I've seen numerous artilery units from howitzers to mobile missile launch platforms abandoned. Of course Ukrainians are losing people too, but Russia was claiming to have one of the best armies in the world and that army is now leaving tons of scrap on roadsides.

Some Russian soldiers are turning back, they don't want to kill innocent civilians.

https://twitter.com/tanjamaier17/status/1497657141422968836

They don't want to participate in this blast from the past 'invasion'.

Kudos to them. Putin is probably losing it just about right now.

Here is a makeshift Molotov Cocktails factory. These Ukrainians are really ticked off, I am convinced they will kill all Russian aggressors,
no matter how many bombs Putin drops on them:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1497660332512354304

coolcoinz

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Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 07:31:01 AM

Yes, too much false news from ukraniens general and western media. First CNN reported that the Russian navy slaughtered 13 Ukrainian armed personnel from the sneak island but today Russian media shows with proof they are not dead and there were 80 men on that island. Ukrainians are hiding their casualties. I saw a video clip where a full Ukraine convoy was destroyed and soldier flash is burning. Too little news about the actual events.

What about Russians who blocked social media so that people wouldn't spread videos of their equipment being destroyed?
What about a Russian news outlet that showed a list of Russian losses and then deleted everything?

Just watch the videos and pictures, don't focus on written news. You can't fake Russian tanks burning on streets and soldiers standing next to their vehicles that run out of fuel.
I've seen numerous artilery units from howitzers to mobile missile launch platforms abandoned. Of course Ukrainians are losing people too, but Russia was claiming to have one of the best armies in the world and that army is now leaving tons of scrap on roadsides.

LTU_btc

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Slava Ukraini!

Offcourse he is patriot. He got offered help from US to leave country, but Zelensky refused. He sta in Ukraine, standing as true leader, doing everything for his country. When he was elected, I saw him only as popular comedian from TV shows, but now it's obvious that Ukraine didn't made mistake when they chose their president.
But that request to citizens to make Mlotov cocktails and attack occupants, I don't know... Ukraine army have limited resources and this request looks desperate attempt to hlp them. But I'm afraid that non-combatant with molotov can't do much damage to professional army and it will end with more deaths of civil people.

Quote from: Gyfts on February 26, 2022, 07:19:19 AM

Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 06:58:48 AM

...

You're not wrong.

At least it is voluntary compliance and not a draft system, but I do see your point. Untrained soldiers going against the trained Russian military with better weaponry and tactics, it's asking for a death sentence. As pessimistic as it may be, Ukraine is better off conceding to Russia. They don't stand any chance against the Russian army without help from other countries, and they've received nothing. I don't get what Zelenskyy's end goal is here - how many Ukrainians need to die while Russia inevitably takes over the country.

Oddly seeing insurmountable pile of propaganda clips, some perhaps not even from the current events, with what appears to be Ukrainian forces either killing or displaying dead Russian soldiers. Gives the impression that the Ukrainians will not get slaughtered if this continues on.

Well, finally some Eurpean countries starting sending weapons, fuel and other aid to Ukraine, so, it's not true that they received nothing. Unfortunately, it's not enough.
And yeah, there is lot of fake news and old videos spreading, but I saw many fresh made videos with dead Russian tropps and their destroyed tanks, cars and BTR's. Ukraine have victims too...

Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 06:07:37 PM

BTW, I think he might be able to overrun and occupy the country, but for how long? Ukrainians will be killing them every chance they get a clean shot.

I think he started an unwinnable war.

Yes, Ukraine isn't going to give up. Maybe they will occupy Ukraine, but people will still resist.

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Quote from: Smartvirus on February 26, 2022, 04:50:08 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 10:16:04 AM

That is why it is critical the West blocks him from SWIFT, and stops the oil and gas sales so that he will not have resources to fund his war.

NATO must establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine asap to avoid the genocide by the Soviet army.

That's the oldest trick in the book that helps to win wars but somehow, Putin doesn't give a shit about this and that sanction. At times, it feels Putin has been planning this for years and have put some resources to fund his war to some significant phase should we have a full fleshed war anytime but, we really hope not.

Talking about what OP stated of Ukrainian president and arming untrained civilians aged 18-65, its a very complicated decision for him as well and we know this. Having a nation with a large force such as Russia at your back, you never get to think out your solution in a breath. It's not right, a lot of them are sure to be 'Heros' as is proposed of them but, they've hardly got a choice being left to themselves in this war.

Once the Russian elite and their families are not able to travel abroad, buy Western products, study abroad, have their "golden visas" and citizenships revoked, have their assets abroad confiscated, they will kill Putin for us.

He needs the West as much as the West needs his oil and gas.

BTW, I think he might be able to overrun and occupy the country, but for how long? Ukrainians will be killing them every chance they get a clean shot.

I think he started an unwinnable war.

Smartvirus

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Quote from: af_newbie on February 26, 2022, 10:16:04 AM

That is why it is critical the West blocks him from SWIFT, and stops the oil and gas sales so that he will not have resources to fund his war.

NATO must establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine asap to avoid the genocide by the Soviet army.

That's the oldest trick in the book that helps to win wars but somehow, Putin doesn't give a shit about this and that sanction. At times, it feels Putin has been planning this for years and have put some resources to fund his war to some significant phase should we have a full fleshed war anytime but, we really hope not.

Talking about what OP stated of Ukrainian president and arming untrained civilians aged 18-65, its a very complicated decision for him as well and we know this. Having a nation with a large force such as Russia at your back, you never get to think out your solution in a breath. It's not right, a lot of them are sure to be 'Heros' as is proposed of them but, they've hardly got a choice being left to themselves in this war.

tvbcof

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Most 'patriots', in the common conception of the word, are 'mad men'. It's not an 'or' question.

The Ukrainian president is probably neither. Just a compromised dude hired by Victoria Nuland and her cronies to play a part in a script.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/DjOVLDASgD8g/

af_newbie

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Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 06:58:48 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on February 26, 2022, 06:40:14 AM

Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 03:12:16 AM

We all know the president of Ukraine is still in Kyiv and he is urging his citizens to use Molotov to attack Russia. In this intense fight, he is still in the capital shows his patriotism or being forced to stay there for unable to flee the country? But isn't it madness to call your citizen to pick up arms before providing them any training? Ukraine govt distributed 18000 arms to its citizen.

Do you suggest it's better to stop?
Guys, this war isn't typical war between Russia and Ukraine, this war will have significant effect on western world.

Let me clarify what's happening and what's the reason.
Ukraine wants to join European Union and NATO. They want to develop, they want high quality of life without corruption and nepotism. They don't want to be under the influence of the Russian government because Russia brings regress and Western countries bring progress. Have you ever been in Russian countries? The only cities where people really live are Moscow and Saints Peterburg, other cities are dead!

If Ukraine fails in this war, this means that countries like Ukraine (Moldova, Georgia) will be punished if they ever dream to become a member of a Western family. It means that they are and will always be under the claws of Russia.

Ukraine fights for its rights!

I am not suggesting anything. I am just concerned about the life of general Ukrainian. Their president is pushing them towards unnecessary death. I have seen the Russian arm force try to minimize civilian casualties for a couple of days. According to the geneva convention killing a non-combatant in a war is a war crime but as soon as these civilians pick up arms they won't be non-combatant. Russian troops will have an excuse to do a massacre.

We are talking about Ukrainian and Russian-speaking Ukrainians defending their country against foreign aggressors.

Putin will be fighting a guerrilla war for years. To subdue Ukraine he will have to kill 20M+ Ukrainians, and their descendants will always try to kill Soviets wherever they will see them.

I don't think the real invasion has started yet. Putin just dropped his special forces and light infantry gangs of insurgents. The real assault has not started yet, IMHO.

Right now, they want to destabilize the current government without an all-out assault on the infrastructure. But soon he will lose patience and move all 300-400K and start bombing the shit out of them.

That is why it is critical the West blocks him from SWIFT, and stops the oil and gas sales so that he will not have resources to fund his war.

NATO must establish a no-fly zone over Ukraine asap to avoid the genocide by the Soviet army.

You don't believe me? listen to the younger Klitschko (Russian-speaking Ukrainian).

https://twitter.com/i/status/1497573934295879685

cabron

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Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 07:59:16 AM

Quote from: cabron on February 26, 2022, 07:47:13 AM

He lost options but to show his people that he can die for the country. that's patriotism in a way. There is still another option and its to accept becoming neutral, Reject NATO and surrender before his men are slaughtered. And in the end, his people will hate him instead if more are dead. It's yet not too late since Putin still offers the negotiation table. It doesn't even matter whether Zelensky is right or wrong, he loves his people, better not let them be slaughtered.

What kind of love is this when you are calling your untrained civilians to pick up arms including under-aged children? He asks all the people to create Molotov and attack the Russian convoy. I saw videos where people are really doing it. That is total stupidity because that's not a protest with the govt where you are throwing rock and moltove to the armed forces. They will be slaughtered if Russian arms forces change their mind to be brutal punishers. Zelensky just wants to show Russia is doing war crimes by killing civilians and that is why he is trying to push civilians in front of the world's most trained arm forces.

Exactly, what difference is the situation in Afghanistan where the kids there are being trained to hold AK47?

This is why there should be a precise target for Russian otherwise they will be killing civilians but armed with Molotovs. It will be a slaughter and the news again on TVs is that Putin orders to kill civilians when the truth is that Zelensky armed them. But then again Zelensky didn't force them, these are civilian volunteers.

laredo7mm

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Quote from: cabron on February 26, 2022, 07:47:13 AM

He lost options but to show his people that he can die for the country. that's patriotism in a way. There is still another option and its to accept becoming neutral, Reject NATO and surrender before his men are slaughtered. And in the end, his people will hate him instead if more are dead. It's yet not too late since Putin still offers the negotiation table. It doesn't even matter whether Zelensky is right or wrong, he loves his people, better not let them be slaughtered.

What kind of love is this when you are calling your untrained civilians to pick up arms including under-aged children? He asks all the people to create Molotov and attack the Russian convoy. I saw videos where people are really doing it. That is total stupidity because that's not a protest with the govt where you are throwing rock and moltove to the armed forces. They will be slaughtered if Russian arms forces change their mind to be brutal punishers. Zelensky just wants to show Russia is doing war crimes by killing civilians and that is why he is trying to push civilians in front of the world's most trained arm forces.

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He lost options but to show his people that he can die for the country. that's patriotism in a way. There is still another option and its to accept becoming neutral, Reject NATO and surrender before his men are slaughtered. And in the end, his people will hate him instead if more are dead. It's yet not too late since Putin still offers the negotiation table. It doesn't even matter whether Zelensky is right or wrong, he loves his people, better not let them be slaughtered.

laredo7mm

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Quote from: Gyfts on February 26, 2022, 07:19:19 AM

Oddly seeing insurmountable pile of propaganda clips, some perhaps not even from the current events, with what appears to be Ukrainian forces either killing or displaying dead Russian soldiers. Gives the impression that the Ukrainians will not get slaughtered if this continues on.

Yes, too much false news from ukraniens general and western media. First CNN reported that the Russian navy slaughtered 13 Ukrainian armed personnel from the sneak island but today Russian media shows with proof they are not dead and there were 80 men on that island. Ukrainians are hiding their casualties. I saw a video clip where a full Ukraine convoy was destroyed and soldier flash is burning. Too little news about the actual events.

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Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 06:58:48 AM

...

You're not wrong.

At least it is voluntary compliance and not a draft system, but I do see your point. Untrained soldiers going against the trained Russian military with better weaponry and tactics, it's asking for a death sentence. As pessimistic as it may be, Ukraine is better off conceding to Russia. They don't stand any chance against the Russian army without help from other countries, and they've received nothing. I don't get what Zelenskyy's end goal is here - how many Ukrainians need to die while Russia inevitably takes over the country.

Oddly seeing insurmountable pile of propaganda clips, some perhaps not even from the current events, with what appears to be Ukrainian forces either killing or displaying dead Russian soldiers. Gives the impression that the Ukrainians will not get slaughtered if this continues on.

laredo7mm

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Quote from: Synchronice on February 26, 2022, 06:40:14 AM

Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 03:12:16 AM

We all know the president of Ukraine is still in Kyiv and he is urging his citizens to use Molotov to attack Russia. In this intense fight, he is still in the capital shows his patriotism or being forced to stay there for unable to flee the country? But isn't it madness to call your citizen to pick up arms before providing them any training? Ukraine govt distributed 18000 arms to its citizen.

Do you suggest it's better to stop?
Guys, this war isn't typical war between Russia and Ukraine, this war will have significant effect on western world.

Let me clarify what's happening and what's the reason.
Ukraine wants to join European Union and NATO. They want to develop, they want high quality of life without corruption and nepotism. They don't want to be under the influence of the Russian government because Russia brings regress and Western countries bring progress. Have you ever been in Russian countries? The only cities where people really live are Moscow and Saints Peterburg, other cities are dead!

If Ukraine fails in this war, this means that countries like Ukraine (Moldova, Georgia) will be punished if they ever dream to become a member of a Western family. It means that they are and will always be under the claws of Russia.

Ukraine fights for its rights!

I am not suggesting anything. I am just concerned about the life of general Ukrainian. Their president is pushing them towards unnecessary death. I have seen the Russian arm force try to minimize civilian casualties for a couple of days. According to the geneva convention killing a non-combatant in a war is a war crime but as soon as these civilians pick up arms they won't be non-combatant. Russian troops will have an excuse to do a massacre.

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Quote from: laredo7mm on February 26, 2022, 03:12:16 AM

We all know the president of Ukraine is still in Kyiv and he is urging his citizens to use Molotov to attack Russia. In this intense fight, he is still in the capital shows his patriotism or being forced to stay there for unable to flee the country? But isn't it madness to call your citizen to pick up arms before providing them any training? Ukraine govt distributed 18000 arms to its citizen.

Do you suggest it's better to stop?
Guys, this war isn't typical war between Russia and Ukraine, this war will have significant effect on western world.

Let me clarify what's happening and what's the reason.
Ukraine wants to join European Union and NATO. They want to develop, they want high quality of life without corruption and nepotism. They don't want to be under the influence of the Russian government because Russia brings regress and Western countries bring progress. Have you ever been in Russian countries? The only cities where people really live are Moscow and Saints Peterburg, other cities are dead!

If Ukraine fails in this war, this means that countries like Ukraine (Moldova, Georgia) will be punished if they ever dream to become a member of a Western family. It means that they are and will always be under the claws of Russia.

Ukraine fights for its rights!

Topic: Ukraine president a patriot or a mad man? - page 2. (Read 428 times)