Topic: Ukraine VS Russia. Ideological or Economical conflict (Read 443 times)

Hmm... Tell me, do you seriously think that "Europe has attacked Russia many times"? Can you really give examples of specific, direct attacks by European countries, in the form of direct aggression, against Russia? And let's give you examples, and we will discuss them by referring to real history and facts?
No offense, but it sounds like slogans from Soviet TV in the 1980s
So - write the year, the aggressor country that attacked Russia / the USSR, and discuss each item.

That fear is not just from Putin, it is from the nukes they have. Remove all the nukes from the equation and you will see that west would not hesitate to attack Russia in a single day. Without nukes, Russia doesn't have even remotely close numbers as Nato has in military, USA alone would be able to beat Russia without breaking a sweat.

You may think that "but USA had so much trouble even in Iraq" but that is exactly what happens after a while, you can't take over a nation, you can only beat them and leave. Russia would be in crumbles, many people dead, government changed, but then USA can't stay there and would have to leave, exactly same would have happened. But since Russia have nukes, that would destroy every single possibility of attacking them.

I think Putin have fear of Europe also because if you look at history then you can see that Russia has been attacked many times by Europeans though all of them failed. Nepolian, Hitlar all try to conquer Russia and till now Europe and Russia both fear each other. At least that is why NATO was created for. So the fear of west by Putin is not a fantacy but a fact.

There are many quite correct, "scientific" explanations given here. I will add one more. Another key reason is FEAR! Putin's fear! Putin's fear that the 2014 revolution, and indeed the behavior of Ukrainians in general, will be adopted by the population of Russia. And this means the destruction of the slave model of building a state. This means the loss of absolute power. This means the emergence of self-consciousness of the people. This means the impossibility of usurpation of power, media, resources, wealth.. This means that you can't do anything with impunity, it means you can't play God!!! And that's what he really fears. NATO security is all fakes and fabrications. The Baltic countries have been in NATO for a long time. For a long time, all the countries of the former Warsaw Pact in NATO. But NATO never attacked Russia and never even prevented Russia from creating terror wherever they wanted!!!

This is what I'm also thinking about. All of the issue regarding NATO being the reason behind the invasion of Russia to Ukraine is just a ploy of the former. Russia kept on saying that it is a big deal, when in fact, Ukraine wasn't even doing anything threatening to them. They were the first one to made a step and Ukraine just put a defenseive stance, because after all, they must protect theor country and citizens.

Putin is an overly-agressive kind of leader that would do everything in his power to fulfill what he wants. So, he really did great lengths just to bully Ukraine even the civilians who are innocent. He is binded in an idea that no one should really walk past his principles and on what he wants. That's why when Ukraine did something against it, he exploded like what a ticking bomb does eventually.

The reason for Russia's military intervention in Ukraine is primarily deeply ideological. At the same time, the very entry of Ukraine into NATO does not pose any danger to Russia, because Russia has long had common borders in the west with NATO members - Latvia and Estonia. This is all fiction and the main reason here is different. Russia is now a sharply authoritarian state, where the people now have practically no rights. Their actual tsar Putin has unlimited power, and the country's legislative body, the State Duma, is such only on paper. Everyone who opposes Putin, regardless of position and rank, either goes to jail or is physically eliminated.

In Ukraine, in contrast to Russia, there is a high level of democracy and freedom of speech. This is very dangerous for the Putin regime. He is afraid of his people and is afraid that the Russian people will also want the same arrangement of society. By destroying Ukraine, Putin is destroying a threat to his rule.

In addition, Putin is very obsessed with the history and greatness of Russia. But with this without Ukraine is just a big problem. Everything that Russia has now in terms of history, all this has Ukrainian roots. Russia even got its name during the time of Tsar Peter the Great at the beginning of the 18th century. Prior to that, it was called the Moscow Principality or Muscovy. Russia, Russian, is borrowed from the name of a powerful state of the 9th-12th centuries, which existed on the territory of Ukraine and was called Kievan Rus with its center in Kyiv. The current Moscow at that time was a small settlement called Mokva and belonged to the prince of Kievan Rus Yuri Dolgoruky.
RUSSIAN, ROSS, RUSSIAN - the population of the territory of Russia, which originally (9th century) was a small section of the Dnieper Right Bank with a center in Kyiv and a southern border along the Ros River. The current name of Russia and the word "Russian" has nothing to do with the current territory of Russia, and therefore Putin hates Ukraine and wants to seize and appropriate its history by annexing this territory.

Reading the points from various users here as well as the OP, it seems that the major reason for this war is more on economical aspect.
But as we read the news during the early days of war, they were pointing out that the reason was because Ukraine wanted to be a part of NATO.
And with more and more analysis of what is happening between these 2 countries, we are discovering that there's really more than meets the eyes here.
But Putin's method is not a very good one to tackle this situation, or maybe, it is the only way he thought that will totally make Ukraine under his power.

Some might find the following interesting.


It appears ukraine is the 3rd largest supplier of agricultural produce to the european union. If Putin was able to invade ukraine, he would own a good percentage of EU oil consumption and agricultural produce.



The Carpathian Mountains are a good natural defense. Putin asked for land behind this mountain range, if I remember correctly.

There is a famous story about Putin's childhood circulating in the media. As a child Putin cornered a rat. The rat was boxed in and had no path to escape. It decided to attack Putin. Pundits claimed that Putin had come full circle in his life by eventually becoming the cornered rat, himself. I'm not certain I believe that but it is an interesting observation.

And why do you think it is that Ukraine is trying to join NATO and become officially the enemy of Russia?

I'll tell you. It's because Russians cannot be trusted. They're a bunch of liars and bullies. They gave Ukraine independence in exchange for its nuclear weapons. Now they claim this deal was signed by old socialist government and it doesn't count, but they will not give the weapons back. They want to nullify their side of the agreement, as it fits them. They also claim that the Soviet Union should go back to its former borders, which means annexing a few other independent countries that have a different language culture and religion from Russia. It will never happen and Russians know it, but this doesn't mean they can't bully those countries to show how deeply saddened they are for the loss of Soviet republics.

Russia should actually be more worried about the Bosphorus strait and also the Dardanelles Strait for their access to the Mediterranean Sea and hope that the treaties will be honored in a time of war. 

I think the gas reserve found in the basin of Crimea was the main reason why Russia wanted to expand it's borders... so it boils down to the economical factors and not the access to the Mediterranean Sea. 

Putin also did not like it that a leader of the Ukraine was not controlled by him... and that is what happened since Volodymyr Zelenskyy came into power in 2019.    ( Zelenskyy is the first Jewish president and with Volodymyr Groysman as prime minister, Ukraine became the first country other than Israel to have a Jewish head of state and head of government. )  Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy

geographically also ukraine seems to be in front of the gate of russia, and this is as putin said. Putin believes that if he is surrounded by enemies in front of his house, of course this is a threat to Russia. this happened since ukraine will join nato, whose ruler is a big enemy during the second world war. so for this war I think the biggest cause is ideological views

I think the main reason why Russia has not messed with the neighboring countries is because they have let them know that they will not join either RUSSIA or NATO, the biggest problem of all was that UKRAINE has expressed the idea of wanting to join NATO, for its part it is easy to give as a country like Finland, they declared themselves neutral, however Putin sent their respective threat to them and Sweden not to get involved because it could go very badly, so the Russian rule reaches those countries whether they like it or not, and Ukraine was also the heart of the Soviet Union, in some way this country represents being of great interest to Russia.

The Russia and Ukraine war is both economical and ideological_cum_political. It's economical in the sense that Russia has other neighbouring countries it shares borders with, why haven't Russia made occupation of part of these other neighbouring countries except  Crimea in Ukraine. Crimea has been resourceful to Russia since it's occupation, only the gas alone it supplies to Europe is enough advantage to Russia's economy , not to talk of the seaport.

This war only seems much ideological to many , in that, the ideological_cum_political part of the war whereby Ukraine took the decision of joining NATO  is what brokes the camel's back, in which the war then got aggravated and situations heightened.

Western sanction on russia is not new for them. Russia faces such sanction in 2006 and 2014. So it will be a childish thought that Putin didn't expect such action from the west and didn't took any necessary steps. A data shows putin convers more than 600 Billion worth of dollar to gold which i assume could be 3 to 4 times greater than this figure. They Keep only 16% of their reserve currency to USD which western country froze. Now putin demanding rubles as a payments from any country who wants to buy oil and gas from russia. A cleaver move from putin.

Apart from the sanctions imposed by several countries on Russia, which of course have an effect on many things including the economy, I think Russia has taken all of that into account.
what is clear is that both the Ukrainian and Russian economies are currently in complete disarray,
and in the midst of a war like this it is certainly not an easy thing to recover

I am not a politician or a historian, I am a simple working person and I sew clothes. I feel sorry for the people who died in the war. And I really wanted to help the people of Ukraine. But I saw a video of Ukrainians feeding a Russian soldier, who for some reason is dressed in a military uniform of the Ukrainian army, and I understand that not everything can go smoothly with my donation. I may lose my money. Now I don't want to hear what they tell us about this war. I agree with you that it will take some time before we find out the truth.

You're correct. The economic incentive is not there for Ukraine. Assuming the war does not last years and that Russia could take over Ukraine tomorrow, their economy is still in the gutter and Rubles is becoming more worthless as the sanctions continue. Ukraine doesn't have enough natural resources in order to justify invasion. If it did, the U.S. would have troops on the ground at this moment.

I totally agree with your opinion, this is not an ideological conflict but an economic conflict, because we know that there are a lot of agricultural products in Ukraine, Ukraine has a lot of wealth from mining products such as natural gas, coal, iron ore, etc., because if a country does not produce wealth nature is certain that there will be no country that wants to spend a lot of money to fight this country, such as Indonesia which does not want to fight Timor Leste, because the country knows Timor Leste does not have crops, most wars occur because of economic problems, including Russia's inflation to the country. Ukraine.

Its been a quite long time since Putin warned Russia's neighboring state about joining NATO. But how does he explains the annexation of Crimea? The Russian navy was using Crimean seaports by leasing them but that doesn't make them the rightful owner of that part. As an independent country, Ukraine has the right not to make a new contract about leasing its ports to another country.

It's true also. Whether Putin wants to take back what the Soviets had conquered before or not, he is gaining in this fight. During the Minsk agreement in 2014, everything was settled already because after all, Russia had leased that part of Crimea for years. Why end the contract and let someone else lease when they have not defaulted? 

It requires a deep understanding, not just a shallow memory of Putin bad or Hitler is bad. If they have to live as neighbors, both countries should have respect for each other and not find faults.

While there are countries surrounding Russia that are part of NATO, they are not hostile to them, there is no border dispute and no ballistic weapons pointing to Russia yet. But they should be worried too especially because there are US military bases with a small number of US troops, Putin already warn them like Latvia.