Topic: Ukraine VS Russia. Ideological or Economical conflict - page 2. (Read 443 times)

It is economic, , it is not just the water but there are different things too.  Ukraine has so many natural resources and could fill up the gap within Russias supplies, for instance Uranium which is needed in making Nuclear weapons etc.

I'm having difficulty understanding the first one since they were still paying Ukraine before the previous President was overthrown via coup d'etat with the help of the West in 2014. Russia was more likely threatened so they had to do a pre-emptive strike before the newly installed leader would change the deal or completely ignore it. I believe that's the main reason for the Crimea annexation.

We can't avoid this situation, I guess. A powerful country wanting to control a weaker one for some hidden interests.
And it is not only happening with Russia over Ukraine. There are many others but we are not blaming this hard as with Russia.
Russia's move is a very violent one breaking the war protocols making it an illegal war. Bluntly killing innocent civilians.
We are already in this digital age, so they can't cover up those mistakes. They have no way of saying they are not doing it.

In all seriousness, if he could control all of them, he would. There are some places that he ignores for some reason and he just doesn't even look at them. But aside from those few places, he would like to control every single USSR part of his old nation. Obviously he can't just take the whole land and make it Russian, he just makes it de facto Russian simply. Look at Belarus right now, we all know they are their own nations and yet we all know that it is run by a guy that is a puppet of Putin.

You may hate this situation, a whole nation that is controlled by a puppet of Putin, but USA and UK have done this a million times in history, every powerful nation benefits doing this and do not care about hurting others.

You're now confusing me even more.

First, there was this:


But then there was this one:


I cannot see any economic explanation here. So which is which? Is it economical, ideological, political, geographical? Or was it simply a dream of the past? A vision of the future? Or was it simply a war waged because of brainwashing?


I completely agree, but my point is that even in a fair democratic process a madman could win. I myself freely voted for a president, and he's a madman, perhaps of a lesser degree.

Because it is economical. I think that the ideological theory and fantasy of Dagan are just to brainwash Rush people. Hitler has done Similar thing in nazi Germany. According to media reports, 200k people were gathered in Moscow in support of Putin.

I am reading through Crimea history on wikipedia, and I see it was part of Roman Empire, part of Tartary, Armenians and Greeks, were involved, Adyghe and other indigenous ethnic group, part of Russian Empire, and in 1954 Khrushchev joined Crimea to Ukrainian SSR. I dont see where it was "part of Ukraine before 1954".

In short, for most of Russians, Crimea is sort of a gift to Ukraine to help it to develop. But as soon as it became developed, Russia waiter for Ukraine to return Crimea. At least that is the idea that is presented to most of Russians.

That sounds wrong. If we are going back in past, then if Russia took it back, Turkey should take it back either.

Russia didn't make the step to proper democracy. And even in a (young) democracy, it's not unimaginable at all to elect a madman; it can easily happen because of lacking actual choices.
The thing is that in a democracy the pillars of the state are not linked/interconnected, hence they won't allow a man (or even a small group) rule.
Since Russia is not a proper democracy, there's no other power in the state that could veto any of the president's actions.

And since this situation is there for too long, I expect that anybody even daring to question his actions is basically doomed. So it's a totalitarian state (weakly) disguised in democracy.

We all know nothing about Putin's mental condition, you and I. We can only surmise. So we may be looking at the same man waging an invasion in a sovereign country, dropping bombs on parks and schools and homes and malls and everywhere, but we could still have different opinions of him.

I am seeing a madman and a devil. Others may see a completely sane man and a prophet.


1. Is it unimaginable for an entire country in these modern times to elect a madman? Look around. Or does a people even elect?
2. This is the modern era. As such, it shouldn't be an era when a country would rape another country for whatever selfish reason, may it be economical, ideological, religious, geopolitical, and so on.
3. I don't know much about the Russian population. What I'm almost sure of, though, is that they prefer peace rather than war.
4. I don't trust much the western media and the resources made available by them, but I think it's much harder for me to trust the Russian media and their resources.
5. Please, you cannot bomb innocent little children because a purported genocide happened 8 years ago, can you?
6. Can you talk of demilitarization and denationalization and Nazism and liberation and bomb children and helpless women and old people?

There are many countries that were once a part of Russia. So now Putin will reclaim all those countries? Crimea was part of Ukraine On 19 February 1954 even before Ukraine got independent. Basically, Crimea also got independent from the former soviet union as a part of Ukraine. Crimea consists mostly of pro-Russian people which is another matter.

With Ukraine opening towards EU and NATO and turning their back to Mother Russia, I find it quite a big ideological difference.
And yeah, it's somewhere between military reasoning - attempt to get Russia's borders towards natural barriers, big seas and mountains - and somebody's wet dream to become the tzar of a new era's Soviet Union.

Clearly the coal from Donbass, the oil and gas from Crimea and Black Sea and the great plains just perfect for grains are also a big point in all this.

Do you know that technically, Crimea belongs to Russia? It was a part of Russia for a long period of time, until Nikita Khrushchev (First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union) signed an agreement to transfer Crimea to Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, to support USSR region and to decrease population of Tatars there. Some people believe, that Khrushchev simply presented part of Russian land to Ukrainians. That is why Russians celebrated that much when "they got their land back". People disagreed why someone "distribute their land to others just for nothings". That what I think triggered all that disagreements between Russia and Ukraine long before war, annexation and etc.

The most stupid post I've read about Putin. Who do you think would appoint a madman to the presidency? Do you know the population of Russia? Or maybe you forgot what time you live in? Is this medieval?
Try to shift your eyes to Russian resources and read what is the demilitarization of Ukraine and the denationalization of Ukraine. Try using a translator. Type in the search the genocide of the Russian-speaking population of Donbas for 8 years. Read about the Gorlovskaya Madonna. Do you know what Nazism is? This is exactly what was the reason that the operation began by the Russian authorities. Liberation of Ukraine from Nazism.
Although I understand that all words are useless while there is a mass mailing of fake news. But history always shows that sooner or later people will find out the truth, it takes time.

"Ideological" is not the right term.This isn't some "communism vs.capitalism" or "nazism vs.communism" type of conflict.There aren't any ideologies being preached by both sides.
The conflict is geopolitical,not ideological.Geopolitics and economy are deeply linked together,so there's no choosing between two options.The conflict is BOTH geopolitical and economical.
I didn't know that there any gas reserves in Crimea.I don't think that Crimea is the main reason for the conflict.
You are forgetting about eastern Ukraine.
The gas transit isn't a reason for the war,because Russia has Northern Stream and Turkish stream,so the Russian gas can reach Europe without going thru Ukraine.
The main reasons for the conflict are these:
1.Putin wants more territories.
2.Putin wants to put Ukraine under his control in one way or another.The possibilities of USA deploying nuclear weapons in Ukraine or Ukraine joining NATO are just a silly excuse for Putin to attack Ukraine.

How do you so sure about Putin's mental conditions? Do not forget he is a former KGB agent that gives him a cold-blooded mind. Putin is not in fantasy nor it is his own will that is going on right now. The Russians have carried out many military operations outside the country since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Georgia (2006), Crimea (2014), Belarus (2020), Kazakhstan (2022), and then Ukraine (2022). But in reality, from Russia's point of view, these campaigns are not the military adventures of a single individual. Behind each expedition is comprehensive integrated thinking of the future geographical plans of the Russians. To understand Russia's ongoing militarism, we must turn our attention away from Putin to Alexander Dagan, one of Putin's advisers.

Alexander Dagan's own book where he talk about his new ideology. "The Fourth Political Theory"


This talk looks like a fantasy but I am afraid that he is exactly doing everything for it at least all these Russ military expeditions point towards that. he is the man behind all these military interventions of Russia and he is using Putin. Putin has a very close relationship with Dagin and is influenced by his ideology.

War on Ukraine is part of a long pre-planned picture which can be proven from a statement of Degan in 2006.


I am not sure in the long term Russia could succeed or not but it will make the whole of Europe a continent of ruins.

Ideological or Economical conflict? I don't think it's both.. more like a political issue...we know that Putin doesn't want his country to be influenced by the west. And by joining Ukraine to Nato or Europe this could be a threat to their country..

... especially Putin doesn't like Zelensky who is too pro-western

This invasion is neither ideological nor economical. This invasion is simply born out of a folly. Arguing that this invasion is either ideological or economical is dignifying it. At the bottom of it, this is nothing but a decision of a deranged man. Putin is becoming a crazy dictator who is living in a world of fantasy. The problem is that he has so much power and he is a mad man. Everybody is afraid to confront him and tell him he is out of his mind. I know for sure that even some of those people in his inner circle do not approve of this stupidity.

It all consolidated and Russia wouldn't stand having a hostile country that blocks the water stream going to them. They see the dam was created mainly to cut off thier supply of water and then the Russian speakers in Donetsk and Lugansk prefer to be independent of Ukraine them experiencing the genocide from the Ukrainian government. It's both ideological and economic. 

Belarus experience the same since they are blocked from accessing waters in Crimea which is worse than sanctions they get. They'd use all thier might to get what they need while NATO is forcing them to do exactly what they need to do.

So you are expecting Putin to first announce that he demands Crimean gas and oil reserve along with free gas transit through Ukrainian territory then attack Ukraine? Georg W Bush first said Iraq has weapons of mass destruction then provoked other nations to join his side to attack Iraq which later proved that this attack was only for sucking Iraq's oil reserves. Superpower throws fear or ideological cake to people to justify their wrongdoing and gain support. You just can not say a state give me your wealth or face destruction. It's not the roman or Mongol era.

Putin has done a similar thing which has done in 2003 when the USA and their allies attack Iraq. Also, you must have known that 35-40% of Ukrainian are pro-Russian, especially in eastern Ukraine and that's a big number. They have a historical and cultural connection with Russia so what Putin said is not totally wrong after all.

This war is deeply ideological. Russia, throughout history, occupied Ukrainian territories. Russia also appropriated OUR history, trying to make it theirs. Putin repeatedly said he doesn't see Ukraine as a separate state, doesn't see Ukrainian people as separate from the Russian people. Only someone very out of context could believe that the war is economical. So yeah, you missed a lot of points. But, of course, with ideological tensions came also economic and generally political tensions. But this war is NOT about Russian gas or water to Crimea. And I honestly can't believe some here are saying there's no ideological difference between Russia and Ukraine, after everything that happened. Ukraine values freedom over everything, which is why it's fighting so fiercely against a much bigger army. Russian people clearly got used to whatever's going on, and they are not fighting for their freedom, not even leaning towards democracy. There's a huge difference, and, one way or another, it has been there for centuries.