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Topic: Ultimate Bitcoin Stress Test - Monday June 22nd - 13:00 GMT - page 3. (Read 21455 times)

sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
@TheAnalogKid

You are one hell of a ignorant bastard who has no idea how stuff works in real world.
Why thank you for such an amazing, well thought out rebuttal.  I am dazzled by your ability to debate with well reasoned, thoughtful arguments to the matter at hand.   Your grasp of the English language and the ability to form proper sentences is also astounding, and I aspire to be as eloquent as you appear to be.

 Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
@TheAnalogKid

You are one hell of a ignorant bastard who has no idea how stuff works in real world.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
I really hope your identity gets revealed. It is clear your intent is malicious, and you deserve the full weight of the internet coming down on you.

The fact that you are hiding makes you a coward.

Quote
CoinWallet.eu
What more identification you need?
Has anyone contacted coinwallet.eu to confirm they are behind this? No legit bitcoin exchange would tamper with the bitcoin network, especially over and over again.

Regardless whoever is doing this is trying to blow the negatives way out of proportion. There is little evidence that services were disrupted, yet in their report they say almost every service was crippled without any evidence to back it up. They even claim the market was effected which is super ignorant.

This is mostly being done to make people fearful, which is essentially terrorism.
Wow.

You sir, seem to be the epitome of the saying "better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt".  As such, thankfully you will enter my Ignore list from here on.  


Finally, back on topic.

I appreciate the efforts of the folks running the tests.  It is good to be able to show now where deficiencies may lie in the network, before greater, general adoption.  You always try to stress things before you launch live, however there is nothing ever that will be able to properly simulate the real world usage of a fully live to-the-public application.  Sometimes you need to break things in production to be able to fix them.




Amen  Grin
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
I really hope your identity gets revealed. It is clear your intent is malicious, and you deserve the full weight of the internet coming down on you.

The fact that you are hiding makes you a coward.

Quote
CoinWallet.eu
What more identification you need?
Has anyone contacted coinwallet.eu to confirm they are behind this? No legit bitcoin exchange would tamper with the bitcoin network, especially over and over again.

Regardless whoever is doing this is trying to blow the negatives way out of proportion. There is little evidence that services were disrupted, yet in their report they say almost every service was crippled without any evidence to back it up. They even claim the market was effected which is super ignorant.

This is mostly being done to make people fearful, which is essentially terrorism.
Wow.

You sir, seem to be the epitome of the saying "better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt".  As such, thankfully you will enter my Ignore list from here on.  

However, before you go, although it will probably be akin to yelling at the wall, I offer this view.

Thankfully there exists a fork process to be able to make necessary changes, able to surpass individuals and gain majority consensus.  I don't necessarily agree with the process that was used in the beginning to affect this change, it unfortunately detracted from a discussion of needed, proper changes, but it is what it is at this point.

Your idea that raising the block size will weaken Bitcoin I argue is quite foolish and misguided thinking.  All one needs to do is see, or know, someone who is willing to drive 5 extra miles to find a gas station that is selling at one or two cents cheaper per gallon.  They have fooled themselves into thinking they are "saving" 40 cents on a 20 gallon fillup, meanwhile they have just wasted $1 in gas to go that extra mileage.  

Similarly, not raising the block size has a greater chance of weakening or harming Bitcoin.  I'll explain why (although reading the preview before hitting post it's rather circular and long-winded, but I had a lot to talk about... I hope y'all will stay with me).

Everyone seems to keep talking about the pools and the extra cost associated with a larger block size.  I can fully understand that.  I operate a full node hosted in a datacenter, which hosts miners on P2Pool.  I see the daily effects of Bitcoin from an infrastructure point of view, I see how much computing resources are required to maintain it.  I fully understand what it will require as the block size grows as with the latest proposals.  This does not faze me in the least.  Today's desktop computers are fully capable of running a full node without breaking a sweat, and can still handle it well into the future.  Bandwith is not a major concern to most civilized areas, as the general public now has access to 100Mbit fiber to the home.  Today.  They're already talking Gigabit to the majority of homes, hell Google has deployed and is selling it already - https://fiber.google.com/cities/kansascity/plans/ .  The server I have is nothing special, an older HP model with a good amount of RAM and a small RAID-array (only 300GB... only).  I will not need to upgrade that server for at least 4-5 more years, even with the increase in storage the larger blocks may take up.  

I cry zero tears for the pools in China who are complaining about bandwith for the increased block sizes.  Change your government policies, or die off.  Just like the rest of the Bitcoin network, pool placement will evolve and self-adjust to keep the ecosystem running.  The miners won't care, they will re-point to another pool elsewhere and keep on going.

However, no one seems to be talking about it from the miners' angle.

In addition to hosting a full node, I also am a miner.  As a miner, I am salivating at the thought of increased block sizes.

As this test shows, the number of transactions was too great to get confirmations done quickly enough, and a backlog occurred.  You say "eh, no biggie, I can wait".  In general I'd probably agree with you, I'm personally generally in no hurry with my transactions, and can probably wait without much consequence.

But as a miner, I don't want to wait.  I don't want to have to run my miner for 8 hours when I have the possibility of gaining the same income in only 1 hour with an 8MB blocksize instead of a 1MB blocksize.

Being I play both node operator and miner, I can tell you with certainty that mining is the harder of the two to do and be profitable at.  The infrastructure costs for mining are magnitudes greater than running a node.  This will not change, and will only get worse as the block halving happens.  We need as much extra income as possible to help us offset the costs of running a miner.

I get the ideology of Bitcoin.  I get the ideology of "well, just raise the fees and your transactions will get approved quicker".  Hell, I even get the argument you and others have been preaching about "the 1MB limit is fine, I don't care if my transactions take longer, I'll just pay a fee if I want it quicker, let everyone else rot".  I get it, however I obviously don't agree with it.

Getting out of ideology, and into the real world, the fact is that Bitcoin is being propped to grow.  Big.  By large efforts from individuals and companies alike.  No matter the motivation, if Bitcoin survives and thrives as is being currently intended by the community at large, the number of transactions will increase, and it will be due to adoption by "normal folk".  These normal folk are going to hear about the benefits of Bitcoin as a payment system, namely "Reliable, Fast, Cheap".  It's funny that in the IT world (at least), the mantra is "Good, Fast, Cheap, pick two".  Which, is pretty much the argument afforded by most here objecting to the changes.  If it's Good and Cheap, it can't be fast, etc.  Unfortunately, most understand that outside of the educated few, that mantra is ignored, and the majority will demand all three.

I'll go back to my gas station analogy now.

Unfortunately the people outlined in the analogy represent the majority, and I don't mean in just terms of getting gas.  The psyche of us humans today is to minimize cost wherever possible, and maximize returns.  Unfortunately most are incapable of looking inside and realizing logic contrary to quick, popular thought, as in the case of realizing they should just pay the higher price, instead of continuing to hunt (or wait, in our case) for bargains.  

So, after all this long dissertation, where does this leave us, and why are we talking about gas stations instead of Bitcoin?

Because the masses will not want to wait for their transactions to take that long.  They hear "Good, Fast, Cheap" and possible or not, they want all three.  In order for Bitcoin to survive and thrive, it will need to do its best to match these qualities.  In order to do so, the blocksize will need to adjust so attempt to compensate for the additional volume, while attempting to adhere to the mantra.  They will want to put their transactions in for the default small fees, and they will want them processed just as quickly as everyone else's.  Right or wrong, and I am on the "they're wrong and should just understand it and pay the fees" side, this is ideology vs. real world.  Real world wins.

In my view it is far better to have thousands or tens of thousands of extra smaller transactions included in each block, to be able to reward the miners and keep them profitable, as I fully believe that will be more profitable than maintaining a smaller number of transactions with higher fees.  Law of averages.

And, lest I forget part of the main argument - the weakening of the network.

I circle back to above where I mention the costs of mining compared to costs of running a node.

My argument is simple - if the miners are unable to sustain costs and at least break even, they will die off.  Even the large farms will be unable to sustain, as they are not individuals doing this for a hobby, they are there to make a profit and pay back investors and workers' salaries, etc.

As miners die off, the diff will adjust lower.  With all the excess hardware that's out there, it will be trivial for a large corporation or country to buy up mass equipment, and wait for the time to strike.  Once low enough it would be possible for a 51% attack to be launched pretty easily, and then they garner control of the network.  Game over, done.

The miners are in control, and need to be, they are the heart of the network.  This change helps the miners going forward maintain the possibility of survival and profit.  It has always been seen that transactions are supposed to assume the role of providing income to miners and be the incentive for them continuing to run.  I just believe that more transactions, no matter how small, will be better to achieve that goal.

Finally, back on topic.

I appreciate the efforts of the folks running the tests.  It is good to be able to show now where deficiencies may lie in the network, before greater, general adoption.  You always try to stress things before you launch live, however there is nothing ever that will be able to properly simulate the real world usage of a fully live to-the-public application.  Sometimes you need to break things in production to be able to fix them.


legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1150
Although I find this test interesting, I still would love to know a bit more about ther person(s) in the background.

When KingAfurah writes about "Our partners at MultiBit", I'd like to know what partnership they have with the persons behind coinwallet.eu.

ALso, and this has been asked before: KingAfurah wrote in the past that he is a millionaire and that he is slowly fed up by Bitcoin. So why has he changed his mind? What are his intentions?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
i find this test rather interesting. i believe if it can find any flaws and then the developers can fix them to prevent any similar attacks, then they have contributed to bitcoin which is good.

i wonder if mining pools are going to do anything about this or they are just happy that they are getting so much bitcoin as fees.

Exactly  Grin
Find this
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322748.20
https://coinreport.net/what-the-block-size-debate-says-about-bitcoin/
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-core-developer-commits-20mb-block-size-march-2016/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2pvhs3/we_are_moving_towards_1mb_average_block_size_very/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Blocksize_debate
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1747/bitcoin-block-size-what-are-the-rules

Now everybody is shaking about their infrastructure in the BTC environment  Cheesy
Hope now the blocksize is raised  Shocked Cool
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
i find this test rather interesting. i believe if it can find any flaws and then the developers can fix them to prevent any similar attacks, then they have contributed to bitcoin which is good.

i wonder if mining pools are going to do anything about this or they are just happy that they are getting so much bitcoin as fees.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
What are you guys all afraid of?!
Be nice to these people at coinwallet.eu
They show you the vulnerability in public costing nuts 2BTC
A Multimillion $ industrie can go down with 20BTC spend for days, weeks, months if the bitcoin developers do not react to this.
Better call, email and shout at your friendly bitcoin dev to change the code, so this "stress test" (attack) can not affect BTC!

Else, use XMR Monero -> find it in my Signature  Grin
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0

1. Has anyone contacted coinwallet.eu to confirm they are behind this? No legit bitcoin exchange would tamper with the bitcoin network, especially over and over again.

2. Regardless whoever is doing this is trying to blow the negatives way out of proportion. There is little evidence that services were disrupted, yet in their report they say almost every service was crippled without any evidence to back it up.

3. They even claim the market was effected which is super ignorant.

4. This is mostly being done to make people fearful, which is essentially terrorism.
1. You can contact via mail, email or telephone, contact info on website.

2. We are mentioning 6 services related to bitcoin, you can hardly call this "almost every service was crippled". Our partners at MultiBit released their own report here: https://multibit.org/blog/2015/06/23/bitcoin-network-stress-test.html

3. We are not claiming the market was affected. Over the course of the stress test the bitcoin value increased by $2 which is statistically insignificant.

4. You don't need to fear transactions. One thing learned from the latest stress test is that the Bitcoin network self adjusts rather quickly, once the stress test was finished.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
I really hope your identity gets revealed. It is clear your intent is malicious, and you deserve the full weight of the internet coming down on you.

The fact that you are hiding makes you a coward.

Quote
CoinWallet.eu
What more identification you need?
Has anyone contacted coinwallet.eu to confirm they are behind this? No legit bitcoin exchange would tamper with the bitcoin network, especially over and over again.

Regardless whoever is doing this is trying to blow the negatives way out of proportion. There is little evidence that services were disrupted, yet in their report they say almost every service was crippled without any evidence to back it up. They even claim the market was effected which is super ignorant.

This is mostly being done to make people fearful, which is essentially terrorism.
He said terrorism, quick, send the troops. For democracy

legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!
On monday, CoinWallet.eu conducted a stress test of the Bitcoin blockchain. Not only was our plan to see the outcome, but also to see how easy it would be for a malicious entity or government to create havoc for the Bitcoin community.

...

In our future stress tests, these lessons will be used to maximize the impact.

Wow, impressive! I didn't expect that "well used" 2 BTC can do this much.
However, the network "moved on", which is good. Some (known!) time frame for the services to be fixed / improved until the next stress test would be good.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1000
English <-> Portuguese translations
I really hope your identity gets revealed. It is clear your intent is malicious, and you deserve the full weight of the internet coming down on you.

The fact that you are hiding makes you a coward.

Quote
CoinWallet.eu
What more identification you need?
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1001
/dev/null
with 2 focking BTC you can do this madness for 12 hours? so, some bank, gov. are group of stupids may literally make bitcoin unusable? omg, I'm little bit disappointed and scared now.(
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0

Thanks for your analyses.
Do you already know, when you will do some other tests?
Some people have stated that such a test schould not be announced. What do you think about that?
We are currently evaluating how to execute tens of thousands of transactions simultaneously propagating the network, since this was the biggest issue we had. For the next test, we will certainly raise the number of servers and upload bandwidth. We are thinking about doing another stress test coming monday again, if issues can be resolved.

We don't think that an unannounced test will yield different results from unannounced testing.
Therefore, future tests will be announced in advance again.
sr. member
Activity: 719
Merit: 250
When I tried to access blockchain.info I got a cloudflare error stating the blockchain.info itself was offline, and that he problem was nothing to do with the cloudflare service. I tried again after a few minutes and blockchain.info was back online again. Their service was intermittently disrupted by the stress test which must have created problems for the customers.

Will you be doing another test in 7 days or a different time frame?
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
On monday, CoinWallet.eu conducted a stress test of the Bitcoin blockchain. Not only was our plan to see the outcome, but also to see how easy it would be for a malicious entity or government to create havoc for the Bitcoin community. As you will see from the analysis below, delayed transactions are not the only issue that Bitcoin users experienced.

Surprisingly, executing tens of thousands of transactions that correctly propagate to the network simultaneously is not as easy as we had expected. One of the methods that was used to increase the kb size of our transactions was to send transactions consisting of numerous small outputs (usually 0.0001) to make a single transaction of 0.01. A simple transaction is usually 225-500 bytes, while many of our transactions were 18 kb (A number which limits the blockchain to 5 transactions per minute). In our preliminary testing this was effective, however in practice it caused our servers to crash. Throughout the day and evening, our strategy and methodology changed multiple times.

Initially the plan was to spend 20 BTC on transaction fees to flood the network with as many transactions as possible. Due to technical complications the test was concluded early, with less than 2 BTC spent on fees. The events of yesterday were accomplished with less than €500.

Timeline

    11:57 GMT - Transaction servers initiated. Thousands of 700 kb transactions completed within the first 20 minutes. Transactions were used to break coins into small 0.0001 outputs.
    12:30 GMT - Servers begin sending larger 18kb transactions.
    14:10 GMT - Mempool size increases dramatically. Blockchain.info breaks.
    14:20 GMT - Our servers begin to crash. It becomes apparent that BitcoinD is not well suited to crafting transactions of this size.
    14:30 GMT - Our test transactions are halted while alternate solutions are created. The mempool is at 12 mb.
    17:00 GMT - Alternate transaction sending methods are started. Servers are rebooted. Mempool has fallen to 4mb.
    21:00 GMT - The stress test is stronger than ever. Mempool reaches 15 mb and more than 14000 transactions are backlogged. The situation is made worse by F2Pool selfishly mining two 0kb blocks in a row.
    23:59 GMT - 12 hours after starting, the test is concluded. Less than 2 BTC (€434) is spent on the test in total.

The following graph depicts the entire test from start to finish: https://anduck.net/bitcoin/mempool.png

Observations

Delayed confirmation times and large mempool buildups were not the only observation that came from our testing. Many more services were impacted than we had initially envisioned.

Blockchain.info

Over the past few months, Blockchain.info has become increasingly unreliable, however we are confident that yesterday's stress test had an impact on their website being offline or broken for 1/3 of the day. During periods where we sent excessive transactions, Blockchain.info consistently froze. It appeared as though their nodes were overwhelmed and simply crashed. Each time this occurred, the site would re-emerge 10-30 minutes later only to fail again shortly thereafter. Users of the blockchain wallet were unable to send transactions, login or even view balances during the downtimes. In response to our heavy Bitcoin usage, blockchain.info began to exclude certain transactions from their block explorer. This issue is explored further by the creators of Multibit, who can confirm that some transactions sent from their software were ignored by Blockchain, but were picked up by Blockr.

Bitcoin ATMs

Many ATMs operate as full nodes, however some ATMs rely on third party wallet services to send and receive transactions. The most prominent Bitcoin ATM of this type is Lamassu, which uses the blockchain.info API to push outgoing transactions from a blockchain.info wallet. Due to the blockchain.info issues, all Lamassu ATMs that use blockchain.info's wallet service were unavailable for the day.

MultiBit

Both versions of MultiBit suffered delayed transactions due to the test. Gary and Jim from MultiBit have created a full analysis from Multibit's perspective which can be read at https://multibit.org/blog/2015/06/23/bitcoin-network-stress-test.html

The outcome was that transactions with the standard fee in Multibit HD took as many as 80 blocks to confirm (Approximately 13 hours). Standard 10000 satoshi fee transactions took an average of 9 blocks to get confirmed. Multibit has stated that they will be making modifications to the software to better cope with this type of event in the future.

Tradeblock

With Blockchain.info broken, we frequently referred to Tradeblock to track the backlog. Unfortunately Tradeblock was less than perfectly reliable and often failed to update when a new block had been mined. Regardless, at one point 15,000 unconfirmed transactions were outstanding.

Bitpay

Users reported issues with Bitpay not recognizing transactions during the test.

Price

Increase of $2. Contrary to some predictions, we did not short Bitcoin.

Green Address

While this app was not hindered directly by our test, we did send a series of 0.001 payments to a green address wallet. When attempting to craft a transaction from the wallet, an error occurs stating that it is too large. It appears that the coins that were sent to this wallet may be lost.

Conclusions

From a technical perspective, the test was not a success. Our goal of creating a 200mb backlog was not achieved due to miscalculations and challenges with pushing the number of transactions that we had desired. We believe that future tests may easily achieve this goal by learning from our mistakes. There are also numerous vulnerable services that could be exploited as part of a test, including Bitcoin casinos, on-chain gambling websites, wallets (Coinbase specifically pointed out that a malicious user could take advantage of their hosted wallet to contribute to the flooding), exchanges, and many others. Users could also contribute by sending small amounts to common brain wallets.

We also learned that the situation could have been made worse by sending transactions with larger fees. We sent all transactions with the standard fee of 10000 satoshis per kb. If we had sent with 20000 satoshis per kb, normal transactions would have experienced larger delays. In our future stress tests, these lessons will be used to maximize the impact.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Maybe the Bitcoin XT developers did this to spread FUD about bitcoin's integrity?

There's been no updates about results even though the test is over, I think their attack was way less harmful than projected and they don't even wanna talk about it, 20 BTC was gone within a few hours since the transaction fees went up and they didn't properly account for that.

There's delays of a few hours sometimes even when the bitcoin network is totally normal, so this didn't prove much. If someone really hated Bitcoin and had a million dollars to blow it wouldn't last more than a day, so it's an unlikely threat.

In fact, I think this proved that Bitcoin naturally responds to such an attack/transaction volume increase naturally and eliminates the problem. Transaction fees simply go up so people stop sending spam/dust transactions and only important transactions. This suggests a blocksize increase isn't necessary.

Real scientists would be happy to have a result and discuss it rather than disappear. This was not done by scientists, the illusion that it was an experiment to better understand Bitcoin is false. Those behind this 'test' only wanted to make Bitcoin look like it needs XT to survive. I'm fairly certain this was a stunt by Gavin and his buddies. If my suspicion is right then we certainly cannot trust the Bitcoin XT devs, they are willing to destabilize the inner workings of Bitcoin and hurt the Bitcoin economy, in order to spread fear among Bitcoiners so that they can gain control of Bitcoin's code. Fortunately it backfired, I think they were willing to delay transactions for over a day and cause some real damage.

Who else would spend 20 Bitcoins on this and try to be completely anonymous? No one...

You are pretty arrogant.
This "Stress Test" simulates an adoption of Bitcoin by 10% of the world population. If 10% of the world population uses Bitcoin, than you are screwed with low fees.
I have no problem with low fees. If your pament is not superduperhyperurgent, i can wait 12 hours for it to be confirmed.
This does not imply that my personal transactions are dust, or your tiny peace of BTC are dust.
Despite this "spamming" or "stress test" on a live system is a good test to show vulnerabilites which are hard to perform on a testsystem, BTC devs voted for an enlargement of the blockchain size. Please remember, BTC is adopted by geeks and people who have a strong interest in keepnig their transactions anonymous, this "stress test" shows one vulnerability of many regarding BTC.
If one entity has more than 51% of the mining power and starts making several transactions as this "stress test" (which failed but will be repeated next monday), BTC will fall apart...
Bitcoin community should rethink the Blocksize change and honor this test or you use XMR Monero where you will not face this kind of problem and the other ones that BTC has  Grin Cool
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1002
CLAM Developer
two things:
1. Perhaps it was because of the backlash they received here, because they were concerned for innocent bitcoiners as well, that they did not do a full 24 hours as they had originally promised.
2. increasing fees isn't a solution; it'll cause less people to use bitcoin which is detrimental.
Storing data is not "free".
The marginal cost of a transaction is a very real metric; especially in a system that expects that data to be stored by all participants for an extended period of time.
Ignoring this fact, does not make it go away.
The Bitcoin "ledger" and block chain is a globally replicated database.
Expecting to store your transaction data in it for little or no fees is irresponsible and selfish.
And ignoring the fact that as a currency, fees should be sufficiently low does not make it go away. I thought bitcoin wants to succeed as a currency, not just a database storage system?

Pragmatism and cost, simply by being un-ignorable, will always out-weight semantic definitions.
legendary
Activity: 1241
Merit: 1005
..like bright metal on a sullen ground.
I'm not trying to hijack this thread Smiley but I am curious: If it costs $5000 to perform this test on bitcoin, how much would it cost for an equivalent stress test on litecoin?
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