Unions Explained - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Hawker

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Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 03:03:31 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:45:53 PM

Um - the union does not provide a service to the employer. The employers best interest is served by screwing wages down to the minimum. The workers best interest is served by not being screwed. The union exists to help the worker.

Question: what do you believe the wage minimum is? I.e. how do you believe a minimum is determined?

Starvation. If you can afford 1 calorie more than it takes to feed a single man, you are earning more than the minimum an employer can get away with.

Hawker

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Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 03:00:26 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:57:13 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

...snip...

My best interest is having employment. If I can take the job of an organized worker and put money in my pocket, why should I be forced to only work at a higher wage and remain unemployed?

To me that's truly being screwed over.

Don't do it then. Take all the extra money you don't want and give it to your boss.

You're failing to understand that employment is a scarce resource. Under sustainable circumstances, unless I offer a competitive wage, I will not have a job. The employer has to make profit to sustain.

Do you believe a organized worker is entitled to their job even if somebody can offer the same quality of workmanship for a lower rate?

You are confusing separate issues.

1. Is the wage competitive?
2. Is the job unionised?

If the employer has made the wages deal, its competitive. Its not your job to tell him he pays you too much. So that issue is off topic.

What you are arguing is that you should be able to undercut the unionised worker. And that he in turn should be able to undercut you. And that eventually you both will be on starvation wages and you are arguing that's a good thing.

Not everyone wants to live that way. I know some US states like Alabama have that kind of system but even they depend on the Federal government to subsidise them. Rich competitive countries have well paid unionised workers.

Rassah

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Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:45:53 PM

Um - the union does not provide a service to the employer. The employers best interest is served by screwing wages down to the minimum. The workers best interest is served by not being screwed. The union exists to help the worker.

Question: what do you believe the wage minimum is? I.e. how do you believe a minimum is determined?

Jon

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Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:57:13 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

...snip...

My best interest is having employment. If I can take the job of an organized worker and put money in my pocket, why should I be forced to only work at a higher wage and remain unemployed?

To me that's truly being screwed over.

Don't do it then. Take all the extra money you don't want and give it to your boss.

You're failing to understand that employment is a scarce resource. Under sustainable circumstances, unless I offer a competitive wage, I will not have a job. The employer has to make profit to sustain.

Do you believe a organized worker is entitled to their job even if somebody can offer the same quality of workmanship for a lower rate?

Hawker

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

...snip...

My best interest is having employment. If I can take the job of an organized worker and put money in my pocket, why should I be forced to only work at a higher wage and remain unemployed?

To me that's truly being screwed over.

Don't do it then. Take all the extra money you don't want and give it to your boss.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:45:53 PM

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 02:43:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary. The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

There would be if the union provided valuable services, such as easier contract negotiation for employees, took care of its own employee benefits so the employer didn't have to bother with that, or provided better employees by being a pool that goes out to find the best qualified workers, and quickly got rid of those dragging them down. An employer would gladly pick a union with all its services over nonunion employees then, and the union would have plenty of negotiating power

Um - the union does not provide a service to the employer. The employers best interest is served by screwing wages down to the minimum. The workers best interest is served by not being screwed. The union exists to help the worker.

My best interest is having employment. If I can take the job of an organized worker and put money in my pocket, why should I be forced to only work at a higher wage and remain unemployed?

To me that's truly being screwed over.

Because unless you have unique skills that mean you can't be replaced or you want to see your wages driven to the minimum, you need a union.

I think you posted in another thread that US workers should reduce their wages to the level of child labourers in the developing world. That's a legitimate viewpoint. But its also legitimate to say that you don't want to be quite that poor and form a union.

Jon

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Activity: 98

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No Gods; No Masters; Only You

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:45:53 PM

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 02:43:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary. The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

There would be if the union provided valuable services, such as easier contract negotiation for employees, took care of its own employee benefits so the employer didn't have to bother with that, or provided better employees by being a pool that goes out to find the best qualified workers, and quickly got rid of those dragging them down. An employer would gladly pick a union with all its services over nonunion employees then, and the union would have plenty of negotiating power

Um - the union does not provide a service to the employer. The employers best interest is served by screwing wages down to the minimum. The workers best interest is served by not being screwed. The union exists to help the worker.

My best interest is having employment. If I can take the job of an organized worker and put money in my pocket, why should I be forced to only work at a higher wage and remain unemployed?

To me that's truly being screwed over.

Jon

donator

Activity: 98

Merit: 12

No Gods; No Masters; Only You

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:44:00 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:40:57 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

I don't see a problem. Maybe the union is overvaluing their labor in this case. If I am willing to work for less, why shouldn't I?

Take all the money you don't want out of the fat paycheck your union negotiated for you and give it to your boss.

I made an individual contract with my employer. It was his money that he is now giving to me. The history of the contract is irrelevant to me.

It's not my fault the Union doesn't have a sustainable business model. Maybe they should be the ones adapting.

Hawker

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 02:43:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary. The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

There would be if the union provided valuable services, such as easier contract negotiation for employees, took care of its own employee benefits so the employer didn't have to bother with that, or provided better employees by being a pool that goes out to find the best qualified workers, and quickly got rid of those dragging them down. An employer would gladly pick a union with all its services over nonunion employees then, and the union would have plenty of negotiating power.

Um - the union does not provide a service to the employer. The employers best interest is served by screwing wages down to the minimum. The workers best interest is served by not being screwed. The union exists to help the worker.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:40:57 PM

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

I don't see a problem. Maybe the union is overvaluing their labor in this case. If I am willing to work for less, why shouldn't I?

Take all the money you don't want out of the fat paycheck your union negotiated for you and give it to your boss.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary. The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

There would be if the union provided valuable services, such as easier contract negotiation for employees, took care of its own employee benefits so the employer didn't have to bother with that, or provided better employees by being a pool that goes out to find the best qualified workers, and quickly got rid of those dragging them down. An employer would gladly pick a union with all its services over nonunion employees then, and the union would have plenty of negotiating power.

Actually, that's a rather blatant example of what's wrong with them. Unions should be exclusionary, something you have to work and fight for to get into, as opposed to compulsory, that people are both fighting, and fighting to get out of.

Jon

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No Gods; No Masters; Only You

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:37:59 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

I don't see a problem. Maybe the union is overvaluing their labor in this case. If I am willing to work for less, why shouldn't I?

Afraid that I will out-compete you and take your job?

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 02:31:24 PM

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary. The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.

Jon

donator

Activity: 98

Merit: 12

No Gods; No Masters; Only You

Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:14:19 PM

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 01:58:14 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'

It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members. You are getting the benefit of that. I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.

So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

Should I be forced to pay dues to my caveman forefathers for inventing fire as well?

Rassah

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Quote from: Hawker on February 27, 2012, 02:14:19 PM

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members. You are getting the benefit of that. I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.

I'm not convinced that some of the people we have working here deserve a union protected job, let alone better wages and pensions. I'm also not entirely sure why the hell they need $24 a month from every employee, either, if the basic idea is just to organize and have a representative.

Hawker

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 01:58:14 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'

It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members. You are getting the benefit of that. I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Rassah on February 27, 2012, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'

It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

Jon

donator

Activity: 98

Merit: 12

No Gods; No Masters; Only You

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 01:07:06 PM

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

They are thugs when they corrupt the taxpayer's only means of negotiation. The main discussion point of the video was public-sector unions.

Well, that's a problem with democracy, not with unions. (same thing with corporations)

I am glad we can agree.

ineededausername

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Quote from: Jon on February 27, 2012, 01:07:06 PM

Quote from: ineededausername on February 27, 2012, 01:04:18 PM

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.

They are thugs when they corrupt the taxpayer's only means of negotiation. The main discussion point of the video was public-sector unions.

Well, that's a problem with democracy, not with unions. (same thing with corporations)

Topic: Unions Explained - page 2. (Read 3343 times)