Topic: U.S. Will Need to Create 'Unprecedented' 35 Million New Jobs if Immigration Bill - page 2. (Read 4367 times)

And if you were there, it would not work for you either because they won't use it.  So you would have to choose a side with all the risks of violence and abuse that comes with that choice.

That's why people prefer to settle it by giving 1 body a monopoly of violence.

Anyway, this is way off topic.  Tell me you disagree and I'll stop hijacking this thread

It won't work for them. Because they won't use it. If they won't work the plan, is it any surprise the plan won't work for them?

You'll note that there hasn't been a religious war in the US... ever. Why?

Because we actually accept freedom of religion, and don't see it as a reason to firebomb a pub.

It's the same concept.

It means your "solution" won't work.  The nutters won't back down.  "Voluntary" is not part of their philosophy.  So to avoid being killed in the crossfire, people prefer to have 1 government with a monopoly on violence. 

None of which speaks in the least to my offered solution to the problem townf stated.

Um; you've never dealt with deeply religious guys who will kill you for impiety and regard it as a blessing to die in the act of killing you.  The word "voluntary" doesn't enter their way of doing things.  And as a non-believer, you would have a very bad time in their hands.

That's the problem. they all claim the city. They want a monopoly on it. Now, if all three were to offer their services on a voluntary, market basis to the citizens of Damascus, the violence would stop, would it not?

A quick flight to Damascus might help you see why most people disagree with you.  At least 3 governments claim the city and they are duking it out with violence.  You may well feel that is not normal way for states to settle border disputes but its what people expect.

Erm - just for some insight from someone who semi-recently had to look for unskilled employment (even though the OP topic was apparently dropped 2-3 pages ago) -- if they can get a GED (maybe not even essential), there's a high level of demand for them pretty much everywhere in the country, because Americans aren't taking these jobs (in fact, the company I was at has frequently considered moving, possibly out-of-country, because they're paying $15/hr to a staffing agency and still have crazy-high turnover and have turned "over-time" into "expected time" because they simply don't have enough labor). It's not even the minimum wage law fucking them over. The jobs are very tedious and have long hours (night-shift is pretty much in-demand at every factory on Earth), but pay $8.50-$13.50 an hour, 65-80 hours/wk, anything over 48h = 1.5x pay, 2x on Sunday, so... yeah... tons of jobs for unskilled workers, but not tons of people willing to stand on their feet 11h/day willing to do an exceptionally unfulfilling and tedious job working every day of the week. Bring on the Mexicans!

ETA: Racial stereotype alert!

There's no reason for market competition of governments to cause violence. In fact, you would expect the opposite, a reduction in politically motivated violence.

Because you can't have competing states without more violence than most people want. 

Rational ignorance is the problem. Voters have little incentive to make sure they're getting the right news, making the right decisions, or even voting at all. So the question is, how to give them that incentive? Give them exactly what they ask for. If the reason democracy is so fragile is that each individual vote matters so little in the grand scheme of things, we should make each vote matter a great deal - to the person making it. Why do we not hear about massive numbers of shirts not fitting? Because every person can get the shirt that fits him. Why do we not hear about massive disappointment in fast food? Because every person can get the fast food that they want. It's been said that we pick our presidents the same way we pick our laundry detergent, so why don't we hear about how low the "approval rating" is of Tide detergent? Because every person gets the detergent they want.

The market works so well for everything else, why do we give the most important things to a monopoly?

Democracy works in some environments, but it might be too fragile to live very long.

If the media is not free and competitive, you don't have a democracy anymore.

The act of feeding bad information to the public automatically subverts democracy by default. It's like constantly misinforming the king in a monarchy.

The achilles heel of democratic government is the media. So is monopolized money creation for that matter. The media needs to be paid, and so do government officials.

The collective joe shmoe could make it work if he was constantly blasted with accurate information instead of misinformation and omissions, because as you said, he does not act on the incentive to be a private investigator all the time.

This 35 million jobs story is a perfect example of how strings are pulled in a fake democracy pro-wrestling match.

Go ahead try me.



This is debatable, but instead of debating it right this second, I just want to point out that this debate was totally suppressed when it could have happened.

Instead, as always, with the 35 million job story, we just get a bunch of hype and facilitation of posturing about the fallout, which totally ignores the larger situation.

I read a couple of pages, but the writer jumps back and forth between the 70's, 80's and 90's making assertions and cannot seem to hold a single idea and develop it.  It didn't seem worth continuing.

Regarding the cause of Mexico's problems, they go way back.  Back to Cortez taking the place over with his 400 soldiers.  Back to the mixing of the native weird excuse for religion with Catholicism, which to an extent continues to today.  Back to the establishment of a class society where those with Spanish blood are highly esteemed, and those of Indian blood are not.

Back to Pancho Villa, a murderer and rapist of innocent Americans, who was nonetheless sheltered by the Mexican people.

There have been continual problems with Mexico, and there have been many devaluations of the peso.  At the core is corruption, and the inability to see contracts honored.  To even attempt to focus on one devaluation of a currency is ridiculous, and to assert that somehow some group manipulated to it's benefit the drop in value when a currency moves from fixed to floating is carrying the theory of top down control past the point where the top down control has been purposefully abandoned.

When a country moves from fixed exchange rates to floating, there are of course consequences.  They may be estimated by comparing the black market to the official exchange rates.

No, the problem is Democracy. Rational ignorance. If the perceived benefit of doing the proper research is outweighed by the effort required to do that research, most people will not do that research. Given how much an individual vote actually affects the outcome of an election, the average Joe has very little incentive to make sure he votes "correctly," or even at all. When you base your government on a logical fallacy, you should not be surprised when it falls apart.

Compound that fact with the previously mentioned tendency for a monopoly to abuse it's customers, to provide the least and lowest quality service, for as much money as can be wrung out of them, and the end result of any government, but especially a democratically elected one, is blindingly obvious.

I have a proposed solution, but you won't like it.

Well apparently an effective way to do it is to trick the government into borrowing money instead of issuing it, thereby mortgaging itself into submission, and then use the proceeds to gain control of the media and to purchase government policy and legislation.

Here is truly the real problem: the collective ignorance, complacency, brainwash, and apathy of the vast majority of regular people. This is a direct result of an anti-competitive media cartel, which is one of many strings, but probably the most important one. So maybe you could say the media is the problem.

A people need a competitive media in order feed themselves accurate information, especially if you're attempting to have a democracy. Only then can people collectively understand how to disable the other strings that can be pulled.

This 35 million jobs story is a perfect example of misinformation and distraction from the crux of a real issue. It's a total pivot, just like most other stories are in the MSM.

Therefore, the problem is t.v. There you have it.

That the fact that there are strings to be pulled is the problem.

If you wanted to take over America, would you kick down the door of every home in the US?

Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

Even though i was half joking calling for a clarification of the problem, I figured somebody would try to tell me something i didn't know, not something somebody thinks everybody knows, gimme a break

The government is totally owned, it's not the problem. The fact that it is owned is probably the problem. I really hope you don't think the government is the one pulling the strings.

u mad?

Does it really surprise you that a monopoly fucks it's "customers"?

Especially after it got bought out?

Who totally outright pwns this organization you speak of, that you for some reason think i cannot see?

You have simultaneously insulted my intelligence and exposed your own giant naivete, good job numbnuts. And thanks for the link to wikipedia about what a corporation is LOL.

Who does this organization bail out over and over again, at the crippling expense of the public?

If this organization's members are democratically elected, why do their decisions and policies not favor the public but rather the multinational/finance bloc?

Who owns the information sources from where voters who elect the members of this organization get their information?

If any organization, including the one you speak of, owes 16 trillion dollars to something, then that something gets to tell the organization what to do, not the other way around.

Who campaign finances the people who want to join this organization? Who hires the irresistable lobbies which dictate the legislation produced by this damn mysterious organization?

Who benefits the most from this organization? Who really controls this organization? Who totally uses this organization you speak of. This organization is totally eat up, dominated.

Think about it, I'm sure you'll come up with the answer.

What organization enables big corporations to even exist as corporations? What organization gives the bankers the monopoly power to print (and overprint) our money? What organization determined that on this side of the imaginary line in the desert there should be one set of economic policies, and on that side, another?

Think about it, I'm sure you'll come up with the answer.