Using bitcoin for transactions in country where it is illegal. - page 3.

Abiky

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

Although, it is NOT advisable to transact with crypto in a country where it is "illegal", the very nature of Blockchain (permissionless) allows anyone to access it at will. Laws/regulations can't be enforced on a decentralized network. Only on centralized exchanges and/or centralized wallet providers. What's stopping people from using crypto "under the radar"? Of course, expect to face fines or jail time if you're caught doing this. You'd need to decide whenever it's worth taking the risk or not.

I cannot tell whenever proof of payment on the Blockchain will be admissible in court or not. I'm not a lawyer, after all. My guess is that countries where crypto is "illegal", such thing will be outright rejected by the court. In countries where it is legal, this is still a regulatory "gray" area. It could or could not be admissible in court. With laws constantly changing, people would be better off using Fiat instead of crypto for day-to-day transactions. At least, that's what I think. Cheesy

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

I don't know people do things these days but i can't pay for a property without a legal binding stating the means of payment, how much to be paid and signature from both parties. When there is a legal binding the need to obey the fact that Bitcoin is not legal for payment will be adhered to. But if they intend on doing it outside of the legal binding then proper video coverage of the transaction should be don't. If the example you gave is a real case scenario the buyer is foolish to have got into an agreement of paying in Bitcoin without any legal binding.

We all know that these days its either people cheating another or fooling the other. Thats why anything we are doing, we should be more careful, taking legal binding and an attorney serious.

Woodie

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Quote from: CryptoBuds on September 28, 2024, 09:28:56 PM

Quote from: Woodie on September 28, 2024, 01:37:44 PM

-snip-

But if you already know that bitcoin is not legal in your country and you still try to use it for transactions. Basically, this is not a wise idea even if you have a witness because if you have to participate in a lawsuit, you may not be protected by the law in this case.

Technically you have a valid point, any illegality can never get legal recognition that's for sure, but there ways this can be bypassed, say using a P2P service to send funds to a bank account then you have a binding paper trail to secure your asset without paying seller in crypto but fiat.

Otherwise crypto is here to stay, and you can't let the cheap coins to slide away especially if you have the interest and are invested...it pays to risk a little Roll Eyes

Luzin

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

So far it seems that I have not heard for sure. But I know that there are some people or stores that accept crypto as a means of payment in my country even though it is banned. My country only allows limited crypto as a commodity asset. So those who accept only know and are silent then ready to accept the risk. If it is in accordance with the applicable law, the violation can be subject to a fine. This fine is divided into 2 for individuals and companies. For individuals, the maximum prison term is 1 year and the maximum fine is $13,198. For companies, the maximum fine is $395,966.

Source: https://bphn.go.id/data/documents/99uu023.pdf (Indonesian Language)

Minor Miner

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Quote from: Btcdeybodi on September 29, 2024, 12:51:52 PM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 11:53:58 AM

Quote from: Minor Miner on September 29, 2024, 11:26:07 AM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 09:35:14 AM

<...>.

But bitcoin wallet address is not like a bank account number linked to a user's identity. The recipient may deny that they have not received any bitcoin payment or say that it is not their wallet address or may even claim that they do not know what bitcoin is. That is why some members suggest that there should be a witness or intermediary when making a transaction. But having an extra witness also brings more risks because bitcoin is illegal in our country, the more people know we are using bitcoin illegally, the more risks we face.

In my opinion we should limit or avoid using bitcoin for large transactions if it is illegal in our country.

from the transaction ID, blockchain will indicate the address the BTC is been sent to, after it has undergoes steps of confirmation, using the payment we got from our signatures as example, when you check your wallet the explorer will give you total number of address bitcoin is sent to, so it's detectable unless you don't want to devote out time to check your transaction history, every transaction between you and someone with bitcoin is open and you can trace it, I have said it before that only conditions that can make you to loss your history of transaction is when you mixer to transact with multiple address, I know that it's not traceable.

I think what @ Minor Miner is trying to say is that the recipient can still deny the transaction even after confirmation since he knows you can't open a case against him since bitcoin is illegal in their country so it's not like the transaction is not traceable, it is but just in a scenario whereby you deal with a dubious person and they know very well that you can't take legal actions against them since crypto transactions are restricted in the country. The best advice is just to respect the decision of the government or if you must make secret crypto transactions let it be with someone you trust very well and let it not involve a large amount of money.

You and I make transactions and use bitcoins as a means of payment. After you transfer me the money and the transaction is complete, I will silently delete the wallet in my phone and reverse the conversation that you never transferred bitcoin to me and that is not my wallet address. I even claim that I don't know what bitcoin is. In this case, how will you explain to the government while bitcoin is illegal, and who will testify for you that the wallet address you just transferred bitcoin to is my wallet?

Bitcoin transactions are public and we can track the transactions as well as the addresses where the bitcoins are transferred to but as I said, the wallet address is not linked to the user's identity. Meanwhile, if we use the bank, we can ask the bank to intervene to know whose account number it is and who owns it.

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

I do not think the court will consider this a valid case because the mode of payment is a currency that is not acceptable by law the both parties involved in the case might get punishment for using Bitcoin that is illegal in the country therefore the court would not recognise the case. If Bitcoin is not acceptable in your country, do not use it because the law is the law and we need to obey it before we find ourselves in situations that we do not have control over. There might be protest by Bitcoin enthusiast and this might help lighten your sentence but for countries that do not care about what other will say about them like Russia or North Korea, do not disobey the laws over there assuming they put a ban on Bitcoin transactions. The best thing to do in this situation is to relocate outside to countries that are okay with Bitcoin transactions.

hyudien

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

This is a risk because in transactions of state-owned assets, all data, especially property, must go through legal means of payment, considering that this involves assets that are still within the scope of state control. Moreover, if the property is a recognised asset, then it is the right and obligation of the government to have the data of the transfer of the owner to the next owner, such as the method of payment signed on paper, witnesses and lawyers from third parties (usually representatives of local governments) The point is to administer the transfer of property. When both parties decide to use bitcoin (which has not been recognised or legalised by the government) automatically when the seller cheats the buyer by not acknowledging it, then the property can be taken back at any time. It doesn't matter if the buyer shows proof of Hash tx because from the beginning it was not a legalised method. Unless there is a history of agreement that can be used as strong evidence, for example a chat between the buyer and seller. But still, both parties will be caught in the law for making illegal transactions.

Btcdeybodi

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 11:53:58 AM

Quote from: Minor Miner on September 29, 2024, 11:26:07 AM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 09:35:14 AM

<...>.

But bitcoin wallet address is not like a bank account number linked to a user's identity. The recipient may deny that they have not received any bitcoin payment or say that it is not their wallet address or may even claim that they do not know what bitcoin is. That is why some members suggest that there should be a witness or intermediary when making a transaction. But having an extra witness also brings more risks because bitcoin is illegal in our country, the more people know we are using bitcoin illegally, the more risks we face.

In my opinion we should limit or avoid using bitcoin for large transactions if it is illegal in our country.

from the transaction ID, blockchain will indicate the address the BTC is been sent to, after it has undergoes steps of confirmation, using the payment we got from our signatures as example, when you check your wallet the explorer will give you total number of address bitcoin is sent to, so it's detectable unless you don't want to devote out time to check your transaction history, every transaction between you and someone with bitcoin is open and you can trace it, I have said it before that only conditions that can make you to loss your history of transaction is when you mixer to transact with multiple address, I know that it's not traceable.

I think what @ Minor Miner is trying to say is that the recipient can still deny the transaction even after confirmation since he knows you can't open a case against him since bitcoin is illegal in their country so it's not like the transaction is not traceable, it is but just in a scenario whereby you deal with a dubious person and they know very well that you can't take legal actions against them since crypto transactions are restricted in the country. The best advice is just to respect the decision of the government or if you must make secret crypto transactions let it be with someone you trust very well and let it not involve a large amount of money.

Zoomic

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Suing the other party to court will be the worst idea you should be considering. You will not only be implicating yourself, you might also lose the case because the court would consider a transaction done with an illegal currency void. In this kind of situation, it is best to settle out of court with dialogue. You (Op) would be needing sufficient evidence to prove that a transaction actually took place between you two. Gather as much evidence like wallet address, discussions leading to the transaction etc. If done thoroughly, the truth will definitely come out. I am sure the receiver of the bitcoin would not want to implicate himself too.

In all, be very careful. If possible, seek legal advice from a trusted lawyer.

Nrcewker

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I can understand the situation mentioned in the OP. But you need to understand that there are many countries where Bitcoins are still not legal. Hence, in such countries, doing these types of transactions is very risky. What the OP can do is make a legal notice and put a clause that you will send digital goods equivalent to the money. I am sure the court will use this to favor the case for you. Alternatively, you can hire a middleman or escrow to keep the funds. Once the property is fully transferred to you, then transfer the bitcoins from the middleman to the seller. These are the ideal options that I can currently think of.

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property,

This is a crucial case and I think it's going to affect the both parties especially the one that made the transactions in Bitcoin and why because all the claims would be on him and the fact that he's aware that the use of Bitcoin is prohibited that alone would extends the case and possibly make it worse. Aside knowing it's illegal and seeing proof of payment is a medium that such transactions was held and hence the victim is sure to face his penalty. People should be careful this days on how they go about crypto currency transactions because the government of such countries ain't smiling about it.

GeorgeJohn

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Quote from: Minor Miner on September 29, 2024, 11:26:07 AM

Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 09:35:14 AM

<...>.

But bitcoin wallet address is not like a bank account number linked to a user's identity. The recipient may deny that they have not received any bitcoin payment or say that it is not their wallet address or may even claim that they do not know what bitcoin is. That is why some members suggest that there should be a witness or intermediary when making a transaction. But having an extra witness also brings more risks because bitcoin is illegal in our country, the more people know we are using bitcoin illegally, the more risks we face.

In my opinion we should limit or avoid using bitcoin for large transactions if it is illegal in our country.

from the transaction ID, blockchain will indicate the address the BTC is been sent to, after it has undergoes steps of confirmation, using the payment we got from our signatures as example, when you check your wallet the explorer will give you total number of address bitcoin is sent to, so it's detectable unless you don't want to devote out time to check your transaction history, every transaction between you and someone with bitcoin is open and you can trace it, I have said it before that only conditions that can make you to loss your history of transaction is when you mixer to transact with multiple address, I know that it's not traceable.

Minor Miner

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on September 29, 2024, 09:35:14 AM

That's not much case, their's something I notice very concerning bitcoin, once you make your transaction with bitcoin you will have transaction history in any wallet, you can go to your history and copy out your transaction ID and present it before law Court or as it maybe demand, I know basically that when you claim that you don't receive your payment from someone who sent bitcoin to you, with blockchain transaction history can tell if you have received or not, their's no way you can transaction data when you sent someone bitcoin.

What I want us to understand that their's nothing secret in cryptocurrency mostly Bitcoin, so therefore you have to understand that only way you can claim that if you have not received bitcoin someone use for payment, is a process the person use mixer for the transaction, because some of the mixers is not traceable.

But bitcoin wallet address is not like a bank account number linked to a user's identity. The recipient may deny that they have not received any bitcoin payment or say that it is not their wallet address or may even claim that they do not know what bitcoin is. That is why some members suggest that there should be a witness or intermediary when making a transaction. But having an extra witness also brings more risks because bitcoin is illegal in our country, the more people know we are using bitcoin illegally, the more risks we face.

In my opinion we should limit or avoid using bitcoin for large transactions if it is illegal in our country.

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

If a country declares operation with cryptocurrency as illegal, there is no need for the citizens to take part in any crypto transactions except they are doing it with people they trust but yet it's not advisable because a misunderstanding might happen between them and they can't take any legal actions since crypto transaction prohibited. Going to seek legal actions when crypto transactions are restricted in that particular country will be like stabbing oneself.

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?

When a case like this happens, then it’s better it’s settled without even taking the case to court, because the two parties are going to be punished for that. Since you already know bitcoin is illegal in the country, what they will ask first is why using it for transactions. I don’t really know, maybe the court will investigate the case to know who is trying to cheat, but I know at the end both the buyer and the seller are definitely going to be punished for making transactions with bitcoin. If you are in a country where bitcoin is illegal, make sure you make transactions with reliable people. If you are not confident with who you are making transactions with, then it’s just better to make use of the accepted currency in the country.

Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

I don’t think the case will be thrown out, and any of them will be allowed to move freely, they will both be arrested, and will be pushed, for involving themselves in illegal activity.

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Quote from: Stepstowealth on September 27, 2024, 02:36:12 PM

It will not be advisable to make transactions in bitcoin within a country where cryptocurrency transactions are illegal by the law. But Imagine this scenario that someone has been using their bitcoins for transaction secretly successfully, and then one day decides to use the bitcoin that they have to make payment for something like a property to the owner of the property, If there is this kind of problem for instance where the owner of the property decides to claim that they did not receive any money in bitcoin, and the case is taken to a law court, what do you think the outcome of the case will be?
If proofs of payment are provided but in cryptocurrency, do you think the court will consider it even though transactions are tagged illegal with it? or will the case be thrown out and the owner of the property with the false claim of not receiving the money be allowed to go freely?

I don't ever think the person who makes Bitcoin transactions will win a case like this because it is illegal and not allowed in the country. In fact, this can lead both of them into serious problems because both are involved in bad acts, and it is very possible they will both face the punishment the laws of the country may set for such crime. If something is not legal in any country someone is living in, it's a better idea to totally avoid it, as it could be a big crime and even lead to death. As for Bitcoin transactions, I am clear that someone should check whether the transaction is confirmed or not. I don't think there will be much lying on the side of the transaction.

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That's not much case, their's something I notice very concerning bitcoin, once you make your transaction with bitcoin you will have transaction history in any wallet, you can go to your history and copy out your transaction ID and present it before law Court or as it maybe demand, I know basically that when you claim that you don't receive your payment from someone who sent bitcoin to you, with blockchain transaction history can tell if you have received or not, their's no way you can transaction data when you sent someone bitcoin.

What I want us to understand that their's nothing secret in cryptocurrency mostly Bitcoin, so therefore you have to understand that only way you can claim that if you have not received bitcoin someone use for payment, is a process the person use mixer for the transaction, because some of the mixers is not traceable.

bitterguy28

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Am sure the owner will never go to court unless he is also willing to go in jail because it is obvious that he have given consent to that bitcoin user accepting the payments when its against the law.

so the main thing here is never deal with illegal or face the consequences , am also sure that the bitcoin user will take advantage of the situation knowing that he cannot be bring to court for serious reason .

deal with cash , keep safe until the law changes and Bitcoin will open and allow in the future .

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Quote from: hugeblack on September 28, 2024, 03:06:46 AM

<< so the contract is valid, but you will cause yourself legal problems.

I beg to disagree with this; the contract is never valid because it doesn’t meet the definition of a contract.
As defined.

Quote

It’s an agreement, either written or spoken, between two or more parties that creates a legal obligation.

https://ironcladapp.com/journal/contracts/what-is-a-contract/

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Quote from: hugeblack on September 28, 2024, 03:06:46 AM

You will not benefit from taking legal advice from the internet, not to mention that this advice is for a scenario that is unlikely to happen.

Do not take legal advice from the internet, including the advice above.

If a person needs a legal advice, it's right to take it from a lawyer. It's not safe to take the advice from any lawyer but it's worth to remind that advice must come from a lawyer with a professional branch in that specific field. Because a lawyer can not know about every thing in life, and only master in one or several fields he works in.

For example a lawyer with his field in cryptocurrency can not give you good legal advice on issues in immigration.

Quote

The difference in interpretation of such a case will be in the real estate law, if it allows payment in any currency, then the sales contract is valid, but since you owned the house with illegal money, the house may be confiscated and you may be imprisoned, so the contract is valid, but you will cause yourself legal problems.

Two sources of money need to be clean, and you can have legal problems if you are a criminal and use dark money for the trade or if you receive dark money from your trade partner. I completely agree with this advice, that warns people to be more careful in any trade, especially in countries where Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are considered as illegally.

Topic: Using bitcoin for transactions in country where it is illegal. - page 3. (Read 981 times)