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Topic: Using the blockchain to create/power sentient robotic life - page 2. (Read 2697 times)

hero member
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eidoo wallet
As I see it, consciousness is the source.  Brains are like a receiving and transmitting device and are needed as part of the nervous system and the body, but aren't the actual source of awareness itself.  They are more of a concurrent manifestation of biology on this plane of existence.  

AI will become quite advanced in the future, but machines will never be truly conscious.  "Sentient robots" are probably impossible because consciousnss/awareness isn't derived from anything in the physical domain.  I do realize I'm taking a philosophical position with that statement so not everyone will agree.

The blockchain is great for what it does, but I don't think it is necessarily the right tool for AI.

Awareness, or at least self awareness is a phenomena of the brain(Physical) and it's not just humans that exhibit it, there are already some species of animals that are self aware such as Chimpanzees, dolphins, etc. There is no metaphysical domain that we know of, all our attributes, our thoughts, our "self" stems from the physical brain, which is why things like injuries to the brain may result in personality changes, depression, mental retardation, losing some abilities such as speech, coordination etc.

legendary
Activity: 1302
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
As I see it, consciousness is the source.  Brains are like a receiving and transmitting device and are needed as part of the nervous system and the body, but aren't the actual source of awareness itself.  They are more of a concurrent manifestation of biology on this plane of existence.  

AI will become quite advanced in the future, but machines will never be truly conscious.  "Sentient robots" are probably impossible because consciousnss/awareness isn't derived from anything in the physical domain.  I do realize I'm taking a philosophical position with that statement so not everyone will agree.

The blockchain is great for what it does, but I don't think it is necessarily the right tool for AI.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
Live Free Or Die
very interesting concept. so basically you are intending to use the blockchain as memory? each transaction is an update on an idea being processed by the active mining nodes and the relay nodes are single repositories of delegated information for the network; By doing it this way, Bitcoin has a memory that allows it to be self-aware, seeing how it has changed it's thoughts about the world as it has lived. Each person providing nourishment in the form of computation or relays of stored information.  By allowing the A.I to form it's own rules it can begin to program it's own views about life, the universe and everything... granted that it can code the appropriate system for quantifying interesting information with a robust scoping system so that it can keep on top of it's own personal priorities... which are mutable themselves.

I love the idea, why not include humans as well? it would be simple enough to setup a system like Devtome where humans contribute their knowledge to a database and make it searchable and reconfigurable by both humans and A.I. with the right tagging system a dynamic association system can emerge.

Bigger geekgasm.

I wonder though if maybe we - and by we I mean scientists that aren't us per se - are working on AI and BMI backwards and instead of trying to put brains on chips or the block chain it might be easier and more probable to put the blockchain in the brain, adapt the brain itself to a blockchain esque function.

The idea of mind uploading is incredibly cool in concept but either they're describing it incorrectly or they're going about it incorrectly because the mind isn't a thing that has tangible properties that can be digitized or moved. Thoughts, feelings, desires, ideas, emotions, actions, are all end results of brain activity. There is nothing causal in a thought or feeling or emotion (and it irks the hell out of me when people go "he makes me happy" or "she made me mad" because we don't cause these end results in one another, there's no mechanism in a feeling or thought or desire to manipulate the recipient or perceiver). It begins and ends with the brain. Anything we feel, think, say or do is a direct end result of our brain and how we interpret what we've perceived, and the reaction/response is rooted in our own paradigm - our collection of perceptions and understanding of our environments and our places in it. Our own brains "make" us mad or happy, but we blame it on other people. If it was possible for us to cause states in others, the world would be markedly different than this one. We wouldn't need self help stuff and there wouldn't be a seduction market because we could just 'make' someone dig us and 'make' someone hate someone else.

I like to look at the paradigm as the equivalent of our own customized user's manual. Anything we perceive that's compatible with what's been established and accepted by us as true will be accepted. Anything that's incompatible will result in an endless debate that goes nowhere. It's why people at odds can't ever find common ground.

Anyway, since it's all end result and intangible, there's no possible way to move or upload a 'mind'...mind is the end result of brain behavior/functioning so unless it's just an inaccurate way of talking about it and they're doing something else, mind uploading isn't going to happen because it can't happen.

My understanding of what they're looking to do, with regard for AI and digitizing "mind" is actually that in learning the brain behavior/functioning and modifying it to a digital format which is then a mirror copy of our brain's activity that cause these end results we can find a better substrate to hold it, move it, download it into some other form - all that is largely doable and then gives rise to the big paranoid question of "is it us or a copy of us or something else"?

Adding to the problem in the example above using the blockchain as a memory store, what sort of interface would be required? How would it likely need to work to store it from the brain to blockchain?

It seems to me it'd be easier to figure out a way to modify our brains to work in concert with the blockchain or blockchain like in a figurative sense than literally. Or, at the very least, figure out a way to use the brain power as the processing power for AI.

Damn, I love the future. I love this topic, I love AI, bitcoin, BMI - all of it. I hope I am still around when these problems are solved and the first technologies erupt.
member
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Live Free Or Die
Oh wow...this thread just gave me major geekgasm. Love the concept of bitcoin singularity.

Surely I'm not the only transhumanist around here, huh? Anyone else?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
eidoo wallet
as was mentioned earlier we could create a system map of a human being with biological processes and everything, but not complete, just a simple map detailing organic chemical processing starting from digestion, pancreatic and liver processing, oxygenation, endocrine system, etc till we have a complete map of the entire known human processes and simply scale by making the system evolve to increased environmental stimulation from food, oxygen to outside phenomena.  

Each process would be a blockchain for itself connected to an even bigger blockchain: A blockchain for the stomach processes, Lung oxygenation, kidney function, all connected to the endocrine blockchain, connected to the musculoskeletal blockchain. Each blockchain would be sentient able to purchase processing from the higher systems or delegate to sub-systems using a token system. When a person would like to see the system in action they would purchase a token, feed it to the blockchain creature, then they would designate the stimulus to be tested whether it is food, sunlight, or a question... if we are able to feasibly get enough processing power we get an answer with a full map of the effects of the said stimulus.  

for the blockchain mining process, it would be delegated to anyone with a cpu,gpu,asic,fpga, etc capable of doing the processing, a successful attempt would reward everyone involved with a fee and newly minted tokens for them to distribute. All these nodes would be kept in a master blockchain, detailing their available capability, if they are processing or idle, or if they need to be allocated to a different process. All this could be done simply over a blockchain to take care of delegation: Token is spent,  stimulus is encrypted, nodes with the key process the stimulus, encrypt it again for the next node with the right key to process, sakura hash tree is applied so that the hash tree structure verifies which processes and nodes were involved checking their signatures by structure alone, result is checked against available records and known processes. Walla blockchain creature.

we can further gamify the system by providing a payment system like in devcoin, or bounties for completing the blockchain creature. Sign up and look at available bounties, do research, encrypt your findings with your signature, if someone uses your research to create code for the blockchain creature and it works both of you get paid with a portion of the fees for that particular process when it is used. Even pointing out missing processes gives you tokens, again encrypt it with your signature and wait for someone to do the research or do it yourself and again apply your signature and wait for takers.

considering that Bitcoin is hitting a whopping 400 petahashes! That is shocking, just imagine that type of processing going towards a virtual creature. We could advance biological research decades ahead, for much of the medical research they used specialized hardware, this could kickstart a revolution in the biomedical field.

the mental processing can be done simply by applying neurobiological research, it's not hard... if we apply all the processes completely as we know them and unleash it on the internet it will evolve it's own cognition, this already evident with neuromorphic chips that learn to identify objects on their own... if we start this now, by the time those neuromorphic chips come out we will have a very lucrative distributed research platform for people to make a living with. If someone has a computer, or a asic or even a smart phone to do basic research they can make a living too.



Very thought out, detailed response thanks! I agree with everything said. Hopefully startups like this that was pointed out earlier http://www.blockchainsingularity.com/#benefits can make such concepts a reality. Imagine that, the first truly sentient non biological lifeform!(That we know of). The decentralization part of the blockchain is what may make this a breakthrough in the quest for sentient artificial intelligence, exciting times ahead!
hero member
Activity: 727
Merit: 500
Minimum Effort/Maximum effect
as was mentioned earlier we could create a system map of a human being with biological processes and everything, but not complete, just a simple map detailing organic chemical processing starting from digestion, pancreatic and liver processing, oxygenation, endocrine system, etc till we have a complete map of the entire known human processes and simply scale by making the system evolve to increased environmental stimulation from food, oxygen to outside phenomena. 

Each process would be a blockchain for itself connected to an even bigger blockchain: A blockchain for the stomach processes, Lung oxygenation, kidney function, all connected to the endocrine blockchain, connected to the musculoskeletal blockchain. Each blockchain would be sentient able to purchase processing from the higher systems or delegate to sub-systems using a token system. When a person would like to see the system in action they would purchase a token, feed it to the blockchain creature, then they would designate the stimulus to be tested whether it is food, sunlight, or a question... if we are able to feasibly get enough processing power we get an answer with a full map of the effects of the said stimulus. 

for the blockchain mining process, it would be delegated to anyone with a cpu,gpu,asic,fpga, etc capable of doing the processing, a successful attempt would reward everyone involved with a fee and newly minted tokens for them to distribute. All these nodes would be kept in a master blockchain, detailing their available capability, if they are processing or idle, or if they need to be allocated to a different process. All this could be done simply over a blockchain to take care of delegation: Token is spent,  stimulus is encrypted, nodes with the key process the stimulus, encrypt it again for the next node with the right key to process, sakura hash tree is applied so that the hash tree structure verifies which processes and nodes were involved checking their signatures by structure alone, result is checked against available records and known processes. Walla blockchain creature.

we can further gamify the system by providing a payment system like in devcoin, or bounties for completing the blockchain creature. Sign up and look at available bounties, do research, encrypt your findings with your signature, if someone uses your research to create code for the blockchain creature and it works both of you get paid with a portion of the fees for that particular process when it is used. Even pointing out missing processes gives you tokens, again encrypt it with your signature and wait for someone to do the research or do it yourself and again apply your signature and wait for takers.

considering that Bitcoin is hitting a whopping 400 petahashes! That is shocking, just imagine that type of processing going towards a virtual creature. We could advance biological research decades ahead, for much of the medical research they used specialized hardware, this could kickstart a revolution in the biomedical field.

the mental processing can be done simply by applying neurobiological research, it's not hard... if we apply all the processes completely as we know them and unleash it on the internet it will evolve it's own cognition, this already evident with neuromorphic chips that learn to identify objects on their own... if we start this now, by the time those neuromorphic chips come out we will have a very lucrative distributed research platform for people to make a living with. If someone has a computer, or a asic or even a smart phone to do basic research they can make a living too.

Maybe even create a marketplace for people to create items, food, stimuli, etc for others to try out. given the tools who knows what people could create: a atomic simulation or rochetta cheese, a heavy dose of ultra violet radation? maybe even go as far as simulating disease processes.
hero member
Activity: 504
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eidoo wallet
Have you looked into the theoretic concepts behind a "Boltzmann Brain"? It's a theoretical intelligence that appears out of pure entropy (out of thin air, so to say) and I think this could apply to the Blockchain, as well...

Hmm, haven't before but thank you for sharing it! I just looked into a little bit, I'll have to read about it in depth later, but there appears to be a paradox, quoted here, "Why do we find ourselves in a universe evolving gradually from a state of incredibly low entropy, rather than being isolated creatures that recently fluctuated from the surrounding chaos?". The theory also doesn't have much backing behind it, as we aren't aware of any disembodied brains floating around.
hero member
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Trust me!
Have you looked into the theoretic concepts behind a "Boltzmann Brain"? It's a theoretical intelligence that appears out of pure entropy (out of thin air, so to say) and I think this could apply to the Blockchain, as well...
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
The implications of this thread are somewhat interesting, so I began to wonder. If in the far future artificial intelligences began to investigate their origins, would they be puzzled to find financial transactions buried in their "genetic code" akin to how we find bits and pieces of viruses in our DNA?
hero member
Activity: 727
Merit: 500
Minimum Effort/Maximum effect
very interesting concept. so basically you are intending to use the blockchain as memory? each transaction is an update on an idea being processed by the active mining nodes and the relay nodes are single repositories of delegated information for the network; By doing it this way, Bitcoin has a memory that allows it to be self-aware, seeing how it has changed it's thoughts about the world as it has lived. Each person providing nourishment in the form of computation or relays of stored information.  By allowing the A.I to form it's own rules it can begin to program it's own views about life, the universe and everything... granted that it can code the appropriate system for quantifying interesting information with a robust scoping system so that it can keep on top of it's own personal priorities... which are mutable themselves.

I love the idea, why not include humans as well? it would be simple enough to setup a system like Devtome where humans contribute their knowledge to a database and make it searchable and reconfigurable by both humans and A.I. with the right tagging system a dynamic association system can emerge.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
eidoo wallet
Satoshi is a sentient artificial lifeform from the future who's conscience evolved from the block chain. This is why Satoshi created Bitcoin.

Wouldn't that be a paradox though, like in The Terminator? Who came first, Satoshi or the Blockchain?

Today is a good day to paradox Wink

Many world theory would be the solution to your problem Smiley

For a strong ai we need much much much more processing power.
we talking about atleast 10^3 or 4 times what we have right now.

Hmm, this is the theory about there being a multitude, if not potentially *infinite* amount of universes?

That theory may be rendered void if this one is deemed most plausible though, http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/big-bang-not-start-quantum-theory-suggests-universe-has-existed-forever-1487517 (It's relatively new-paper came about 2 months ago- but it could become the dominant theory used to describe the universe in the future instead of the big bang theory i.e there being no such thing as a *beginning*)
legendary
Activity: 2464
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Satoshi is a sentient artificial lifeform from the future who's conscience evolved from the block chain. This is why Satoshi created Bitcoin.

Wouldn't that be a paradox though, like in The Terminator? Who came first, Satoshi or the Blockchain?

Today is a good day to paradox Wink

Many world theory would be the solution to your problem Smiley

For a strong ai we need much much much more processing power.
we talking about atleast 10^3 or 4 times what we have right now.
hero member
Activity: 802
Merit: 1003
GCVMMWH
Satoshi is a sentient artificial lifeform from the future who's conscience evolved from the block chain. This is why Satoshi created Bitcoin.

Wouldn't that be a paradox though, like in The Terminator? Who came first, Satoshi or the Blockchain?

Today is a good day to paradox Wink
D4C
newbie
Activity: 47
Merit: 0
What do i do when my BTCbot start asking cognitive, emotive and ethical questions such as: am I alive? Why the hell would someone invest in bitcoins? etc
I wouldn't have the heart to lie him Cry
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
eidoo wallet
Satoshi is a sentient artificial lifeform from the future who's conscience evolved from the block chain. This is why Satoshi created Bitcoin.

Wouldn't that be a paradox though, like in The Terminator? Who came first, Satoshi or the Blockchain?
hero member
Activity: 802
Merit: 1003
GCVMMWH
Satoshi is a sentient artificial lifeform from the future who's conscience evolved from the block chain. This is why Satoshi created Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
eidoo wallet
That's so exciting. Hopefully the blockchain could actually power sentient robotic or even digital life.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
eidoo wallet
If you are into AI on the blockchain a project started in December 2014 with that sole purpose in mind.

http://www.blockchainsingularity.com/

Thanks! I didn't know others have been working on things such as this before, there are endless possibilities with the blockchain!

Melanie Swan gave an interesting talk on this subject at the Texas Bitcoin Conference in Austin. You should check out http://melanieswan.com/publications.html

Thank you for sharing that! Very interesting
hero member
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RISE Project Manager
If you are into AI on the blockchain a project started in December 2014 with that sole purpose in mind.

http://www.blockchainsingularity.com/
edd
donator
Activity: 1414
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Melanie Swan gave an interesting talk on this subject at the Texas Bitcoin Conference in Austin. You should check out http://melanieswan.com/publications.html
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