Venezuela collapses into a black hole????

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: countryfree on August 21, 2016, 07:01:30 AM

Quote from: eddie13 on August 15, 2016, 08:16:47 PM

What kind of land could I buy there for $1k right now?

Don't think about that. I'm sure property in Venezuela is very affordable right now, but you couldn't count on the police to enforce your property rights. The country is too much in a mess, the average investor shall look elsewhere.

Never ever purchase property in Venezuela (especially large rural holdings). Before Chavez rose to power, a large number of US and European citizens owned vast rural properties in Venezuela. Chavez nationalized most of them, and evicted the owners forcefully. Most of the land-owners received zero compensation for their loss. There is no guarantee that this will not happen again.

Spendulus

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 21, 2016, 12:37:46 AM

Quote from: Spendulus on August 20, 2016, 04:24:25 PM

If that is the case then it is the classical socialist model of public funds (the property of the people) not being used efficiently. Usually there is also great, even fantastic levels of inefficiency at the levels of production and distribution.

Most of the crude oil extraction equipment and technology was imported from the Western nations, and in most cases they are operated by personnel who have been trained in the Western nations. So there is not much inefficiency in the production. However, distribution is a mess. As a result of the insane subsidy, a large part of the petroleum products are smuggled abroad.

Again, "generally," when a nation experiences internal economic collapse, the black markets simply expand to cover the needs of the people, or most of them. However, when the government controls the food supplies at the point of a gun, mass starvation certainly can occur.

Personally I view this as a justifiable case for US intervention, but that's just me.

countryfree

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Quote from: eddie13 on August 15, 2016, 08:16:47 PM

What kind of land could I buy there for $1k right now?

Don't think about that. I'm sure property in Venezuela is very affordable right now, but you couldn't count on the police to enforce your property rights. The country is too much in a mess, the average investor shall look elsewhere.

Masha Sha

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Quote from: BADecker on August 20, 2016, 12:17:15 PM

Quote from: criptix on August 19, 2016, 07:43:33 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

What the hell.

The worst hilarious bullshit I ever heard. Good lord you are selling insurances and don't advise people on their debt.

Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2016, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

It's not this simple. Look at Argentina, in which the privatization was done simply to krony capitalists for pennies on the dollar.

Although I am opposed to socialism, these assets in question are "owned by the people."

Although you have on occasion railed against companies and "imperialism," the best thing for these assets is efficient management. Companies should be hired who are capable of doing this, who do it routinely, for a small percentage of overall cash flow.

The best thing for the people to do is, disassemble their government, form a common law government patterned off the USA or Britain, and get on with their lives in freedom.

Cool

Sadly I think most people in the world are too stupid for that (mind control nationalistic backed, ignorance, lack of time to understand the opportunity of the American dream). The American Revolution was the exception... Look even most Americans failed to value it. Specifically with the mostly so called educated (Obama want to replace the us system with the UN charter, Bloomberg want to regulate how much you can drink, prohibiting plant of the earth is still widely considered moral, and the list goes on).

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Spendulus on August 20, 2016, 04:24:25 PM

If that is the case then it is the classical socialist model of public funds (the property of the people) not being used efficiently. Usually there is also great, even fantastic levels of inefficiency at the levels of production and distribution.

Most of the crude oil extraction equipment and technology was imported from the Western nations, and in most cases they are operated by personnel who have been trained in the Western nations. So there is not much inefficiency in the production. However, distribution is a mess. As a result of the insane subsidy, a large part of the petroleum products are smuggled abroad.

Spendulus

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 20, 2016, 02:18:22 PM

Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2016, 09:29:49 PM

It's not this simple. Look at Argentina, in which the privatization was done simply to krony capitalists for pennies on the dollar.

Although I am opposed to socialism, these assets in question are "owned by the people."

Although you have on occasion railed against companies and "imperialism," the best thing for these assets is efficient management. Companies should be hired who are capable of doing this, who do it routinely, for a small percentage of overall cash flow.

These companies (Petróleos de Venezuela.etc) are being managed efficiently, and every year they pay their dividend to the government. It is the government which is inefficient in handling this revenue. A large part of the revenue is spent on subsidizing gasoline (costs $0.01 per liter in Venezuela). This subsidized gasoline is smuggled in to Colombia, and ordinary people are left with empty fuel tanks.

If that is the case then it is the classical socialist model of public funds (the property of the people) not being used efficiently. Usually there is also great, even fantastic levels of inefficiency at the levels of production and distribution.

bryant.coleman

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Activity: 3766

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Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2016, 09:29:49 PM

It's not this simple. Look at Argentina, in which the privatization was done simply to krony capitalists for pennies on the dollar.

Although I am opposed to socialism, these assets in question are "owned by the people."

Although you have on occasion railed against companies and "imperialism," the best thing for these assets is efficient management. Companies should be hired who are capable of doing this, who do it routinely, for a small percentage of overall cash flow.

These companies (Petróleos de Venezuela.etc) are being managed efficiently, and every year they pay their dividend to the government. It is the government which is inefficient in handling this revenue. A large part of the revenue is spent on subsidizing gasoline (costs $0.01 per liter in Venezuela). This subsidized gasoline is smuggled in to Colombia, and ordinary people are left with empty fuel tanks.

BADecker

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Quote from: criptix on August 19, 2016, 07:43:33 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

What the hell.

The worst hilarious bullshit I ever heard. Good lord you are selling insurances and don't advise people on their debt.

Quote from: Spendulus on August 19, 2016, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

It's not this simple. Look at Argentina, in which the privatization was done simply to krony capitalists for pennies on the dollar.

Although I am opposed to socialism, these assets in question are "owned by the people."

Although you have on occasion railed against companies and "imperialism," the best thing for these assets is efficient management. Companies should be hired who are capable of doing this, who do it routinely, for a small percentage of overall cash flow.

The best thing for the people to do is, disassemble their government, form a common law government patterned off the USA or Britain, and get on with their lives in freedom.

Cool

Spendulus

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

It's not this simple. Look at Argentina, in which the privatization was done simply to krony capitalists for pennies on the dollar.

Although I am opposed to socialism, these assets in question are "owned by the people."

Although you have on occasion railed against companies and "imperialism," the best thing for these assets is efficient management. Companies should be hired who are capable of doing this, who do it routinely, for a small percentage of overall cash flow.

criptix

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 17, 2016, 01:40:41 AM

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

What the hell.

The worst hilarious bullshit I ever heard. Good lord you are selling insurances and don't advise people on their debt.

bryant.coleman

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Activity: 3766

Merit: 1217

Quote from: catch.me.if.you.can on August 16, 2016, 05:05:37 PM

Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

Too late for anything now.... The only option left is to privatize the oil deposits. Sell the national oil company (Petróleos de Venezuela) to investors from China or the United States, and use the revenues from this sale to buy food, medicine and the other essential items. They can also sell the Bauxite, Iron ore and coal mines.

BADecker

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The difference in the US is that people wouldn't put up with this kind of treatment from government. How could they stop government in the US? With guns. The people might not win, but the government wouldn't win either.

Be wary of moving to Latin American countries. If the States crashes, even only financially, it's anybody's guess what those countries might start doing to people within their borders. And no guns to protect.

Cool

catch.me.if.you.can

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Argentina confronted the crisis with plastic money. Venezuela must do the same.

DrankTooMuchKoolaid

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I'm not sure if things there are that dire, but the country is definitely undergoing an immense crisis. And they sit on some of the largest proven deposits of oil at the same time. Goes to show what socializm can do with a perfectly good society.

Sithara007

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Why they are blaming everything on Maduro? The opposition won the majority during the last elections.

Lethn

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Quote from: Dassi on August 15, 2016, 01:44:29 PM

If Venezuela was really as bad as you say, the people would have emigrated a long time ago like the Syrians are doing. It may be a poor country but even poor African countries are not as hungry as that.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article81578152.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/05/venezuelans-storm-colombia-border-food

By the way people, this is what legit refugees look like not the migrants swarming Europe purely to go to countries with great welfare benefits.

Masha Sha

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Quote from: eddie13 on August 15, 2016, 08:16:47 PM

What kind of land could I buy there for $1k right now?

Yuugggee but will you be able to keep it? Hehehe

The root cause is socialism coupled with exponential breeding, aka the political class decided to divided the pie fairly, however they took a bigger slice for them (Maduro and Chavez families and close friends are billionaires on papers), those making the cake found it unfair and already left (smart people and money leave first) so the pie kept shrinking while the people fucked like rabbits expecting to be fed pie...

They need to get 2 or 3 orders of magnitude deeper in the misery before the population collapse start big enough to Have a chance to reboot this nation. I don't believe that the locals even with their suffering understand the basic values of free market aka rule of the law of the market: you pay what you buy or you get paid for what you sell. You fix the price like you want because it's YOURS.

eddie13

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What kind of land could I buy there for $1k right now?

pattu1

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Quote from: Dassi on August 15, 2016, 01:44:29 PM

If Venezuela was really as bad as you say, the people would have emigrated a long time ago like the Syrians are doing. It may be a poor country but even poor African countries are not as hungry as that.

At some point, they will start trying to flee.
Right now, there is security of life. If things continue like this, there will be a riot-like situation.

gentlemand

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Quote from: Dassi on August 15, 2016, 01:44:29 PM

If Venezuela was really as bad as you say, the people would have emigrated a long time ago like the Syrians are doing. It may be a poor country but even poor African countries are not as hungry as that.

Sniff around just a little and you can find the same facts even in the mainstream media, albeit with a little more watering down. It's clear that this is an utterly failed state. Similar to Zimbabwe, it just goes to show that the wrong policies can fuck up countries abundant in natural resources.

Topic: Venezuela collapses into a black hole???? (Read 1285 times)