Verifying Provably Fair b.s. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Saint-loup

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Quote from: bonjouros on August 30, 2020, 10:33:02 AM

I am also curious about this one because I saw that there are many platforms that are saying that they offer a probably fair script but it will be good if a normal
gambler can verify it whether they are telling the truth or not.

So third party application will be very helpful if there is willing to create a platform that will verify their script. I will be looking forward if there will be available in the future.

Generally it's quite easy to verify if the provably fair game is ok. And unlike cryptos related things you can use tools(sha, hmac calculators,...) from the web for that, because the datas to be sent are not critical. So I think it's better for people to verify themselves, they can learn how the game works and what are their real chances to win, thanks to that.

Lakai01

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Quote from: efialtis on September 01, 2020, 04:27:06 AM

I have added a box stating that not cheating by manipulating bets doesn't automatically mean a casino can't be shady and scam people.

Splendid, thank you very much efialtis!

Quote from: webtricks on September 01, 2020, 03:42:44 AM

You are absolutely right. There is a difference between 'cheating' and 'scamming'. This tool will only verify that the casino is not cheating you by showing manipulated bet results. However, you should take due-diligence before depositing money on a casino because even though casino is provably-fair, it can scam by not paying you or come up with some shitty rule to ban your account.

Right, that's exactly what I mean. Unfortunately, you see too often postings on Bitcointalk where scams are excluded, because one page is "provably fair". This leads to a false sense of security and is even abused by casinos that have the pure intention to scam. Unfortunately, very few players actually deal with what "provably fair" means and try to verify their bets although it is VERY easy to do (and got even more easier now thanks to BTCGosu Wink

)

efialtis

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Quote from: Lakai01 on September 01, 2020, 03:27:44 AM

Quote from: webtricks on August 31, 2020, 10:13:55 AM

Your wait it over, as I promised on the first page of this thread, btcgosu has already come up with the biggest third-party provably fair verification tool. It is currently covering 25 casinos and 49 games.

Legendary

In the text BTCGosu should emphasize the

Quote

By using this tool, you will be able to check if your bets placed on various crypto casinos are legitimate

in my opinion even better. Don't let anybody get the idea that this would protect him/her from scams just because BTCGosus Verifier shows a positive result.

As already mentioned, "provable fair" is too often confused with "won't scam me" ...

Otherwise: Top work, I like the Verifier very much!

I have added a box stating that not cheating by manipulating bets doesn't automatically mean a casino can't be shady and scam people.

webtricks

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Quote from: Lakai01 on September 01, 2020, 03:27:44 AM

In the text BTCGosu should emphasize the

Quote

By using this tool, you will be able to check if your bets placed on various crypto casinos are legitimate

in my opinion even better. Don't let anybody get the idea that this would protect him/her from scams just because BTCGosus Verifier shows a positive result.

As already mentioned, "provable fair" is too often confused with "won't scam me" ...

You are absolutely right. There is a difference between 'cheating' and 'scamming'. This tool will only verify that the casino is not cheating you by showing manipulated bet results. However, you should take due-diligence before depositing money on a casino because even though casino is provably-fair, it can scam by not paying you or come up with some shitty rule to ban your account.

But wait, btcgosu get that covered too! @efialtis has posted some top-notch reviews of the popular casinos on btcgosu and he's adding new periodically. These reviews can be taken into consideration for the process of due-diligence and picking right casino for you, more here: https://www.btcgosu.com/

Lakai01

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Quote from: webtricks on August 31, 2020, 10:13:55 AM

Your wait it over, as I promised on the first page of this thread, btcgosu has already come up with the biggest third-party provably fair verification tool. It is currently covering 25 casinos and 49 games.

Legendary

In the text BTCGosu should emphasize the

Quote

By using this tool, you will be able to check if your bets placed on various crypto casinos are legitimate

in my opinion even better. Don't let anybody get the idea that this would protect him/her from scams just because BTCGosus Verifier shows a positive result.

As already mentioned, "provable fair" is too often confused with "won't scam me" ...

Otherwise: Top work, I like the Verifier very much!

webtricks

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Quote from: bonjouros on August 30, 2020, 10:33:02 AM

I am also curious about this one because I saw that there are many platforms that are saying that they offer a probably fair script but it will be good if a normal
gambler can verify it whether they are telling the truth or not.

So third party application will be very helpful if there is willing to create a platform that will verify their script. I will be looking forward if there will be available in the future.

Your wait it over, as I promised on the first page of this thread, btcgosu has already come up with the biggest third-party provably fair verification tool. It is currently covering 25 casinos and 49 games.

Here's the link: https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/

Can't see the casino or game you were looking for in the tool? No problem, you can request addition of unlisted casinos/games in this thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/btcgosu-your-trusted-guide-to-the-best-bitcoin-casinos-5262141 and same will get added in the tool in near future.

wildan88

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i was kinda curious too i've been verifying it too i read some post about when he try to verify it on the casino's built in verifier a hash come but when he tried to a third party verifier the result is different.

Ucy

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Quote from: Natalim on August 28, 2020, 06:54:42 AM

Quote from: Lakai01 on August 27, 2020, 10:23:47 PM

Quote from: slaman29 on August 27, 2020, 06:07:06 AM

This was just discussed at one casino as well earlier today, I won't say names, but I think there is a misconception about what provably fair means. RNG systems that people respect and acknowledge aren't the same as PF. PF should mean you can verify on your own without relying on 3rd party sites.

That's what I am talking about. Provably Fair is very missleading, a large part of the players understands by it something, which is actually not meant and weighs itself in false security.
The problem here is that this can be exploited by casinos, which may scam their players(no payout of larger amounts, ...). It is enough to write "We are provably fair" on the website and you will get an unjustified trust advance.

Therefore I think OP has a point, do we have a 3rd party site that we can verify if the result of a certain site is really provably fair?
I'm still interested with it though I mostly focus on sports betting where it's not really necessary as games can be fix or not, I just have to be at the right side.

If you mean football betting (which is actually part of sports-betting), then I don't really see the need for the typical provable fair feature used mostly for random-based bettings whose betting outcomes are determined by the system you are betting on... And you'll have to worry about the possibility of results of winners getting changed.

Normally you are issued a ticket after betting on sports/football as proof, which makes your true result getting changed by the betting sites hard...Though it's possible that betting sites would wrongly dispute the tickets of true winners and refusing to accept that they are the true winners when they come to claim their prize. I guess this is where provable fair could be used to avoid that kind of situation, maybe by hashing the tickets before they are giving to bettors?

shoreno

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Well, I'am not sure about what kind of gambling platform you are talking about. There are many gambling sites to start with..

he mention the games blackjack and slots as a few example . that games fall on a casino type gambling but he didnt mention a site name .

we dont know if he is shy to say or he tries to protect the reputation of the site but you said lots of sites do have this same problem ? not aware with that , maybe you are only playing on an unfair gambling site because fair gambling sites will not cheat on thier players . they just accept the result if players win they loose .

dre1982

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Quote from: bonjouros on August 30, 2020, 10:33:02 AM

I am also curious about this one because I saw that there are many platforms that are saying that they offer a probably fair script but it will be good if a normal
gambler can verify it whether they are telling the truth or not.

So third party application will be very helpful if there is willing to create a platform that will verify their script. I will be looking forward if there will be available in the future.

There are some third parties which verify the casino's. Like cryptogambling.org for example. All the biggest dice sites have been verified by them.

I noticed on Duckdice even their Random Number Generator is certified (https://duckdice.io/storage/downloads/RNG_Certificate_UK_Sabant_BV_ITL1902910_12Nov19.pdf)

bonjouros

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I am also curious about this one because I saw that there are many platforms that are saying that they offer a probably fair script but it will be good if a normal
gambler can verify it whether they are telling the truth or not.

So third party application will be very helpful if there is willing to create a platform that will verify their script. I will be looking forward if there will be available in the future.

khaled0111

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Quote from: SaShiRaJaVu on August 29, 2020, 06:06:26 PM

Which site you are talking about,

he already answered that, check his last reply #8

Quote

you need to have your server seed, client seed and Nonce to verify your bets and enter manually all these strings of long data and if you are playing for a long time and if you want to verify everything it is going to take a very long time.

you don't have to check all the results, just those you think they are rigged.

@OP, most reliable casinos have a PF page where they explain in details how their provably fair system works and most of the times they provide the source code for the script with which you can verify the results, you can copy it and run it locally.

pikkie

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Quote from: jademaxsuy on August 29, 2020, 09:46:02 PM

Quote from: bobyhodob on August 29, 2020, 08:12:42 AM

I think there are still some gambling places that still can't be fair because usually the fair possibility posts are only on or in front of the gambling site's website but sometimes they insert an encryption script that makes enemies often lose.

Yeah of course, gambling for others is business even some uses gamblingn platform to scam. If you can visit the reputation section then you can see few gambling platform with bad reputation.

There are gambling platform that welcome you with hug bonus as sign in bonus in joining their platform. Before yo can withdraw you are ask to play the game and of course win that game. However, when you will going to withdraw the bonus and the winning profits of the game the dev will going to ask a processing fee like some sort of btc to deposit before one can withdraw which shows that this activity is clearly a scam activity. Why would ask for a certain deposit before one can withdraw? why not deduct it to tye funds to be withdrawn?

when there are gambling places that do like that they usually have a minimum amount of withdrawal so that maybe this feature can impose restrictions on players to make small withdrawals and only make large withdrawals, until now there are some gambling places that apply it. one of them is Fortunejack which provides a minimum withdrawal limit but has very high confidence.

My advice is when you want to choose a gambling place, then you have to see some of the information in this forum or you can also post to the announcement thread from the gambling website that you can search at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=56.0 , after that you can read one by one the very important information you can get from there.

jademaxsuy

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Quote from: bobyhodob on August 29, 2020, 08:12:42 AM

I think there are still some gambling places that still can't be fair because usually the fair possibility posts are only on or in front of the gambling site's website but sometimes they insert an encryption script that makes enemies often lose.

Yeah of course, gambling for others is business even some uses gamblingn platform to scam. If you can visit the reputation section then you can see few gambling platform with bad reputation.

There are gambling platform that welcome you with hug bonus as sign in bonus in joining their platform. Before yo can withdraw you are ask to play the game and of course win that game. However, when you will going to withdraw the bonus and the winning profits of the game the dev will going to ask a processing fee like some sort of btc to deposit before one can withdraw which shows that this activity is clearly a scam activity. Why would ask for a certain deposit before one can withdraw? why not deduct it to tye funds to be withdrawn?

SaShiRaJaVu

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Quote from: Theraker on August 26, 2020, 04:13:22 PM

So many results are obviously complete bullshit. Has anyone found a third party site that we the players can use to verify results of blackjack and slots and whatever other questionable outcomes we encounter?

Which site you are talking about, even i have not come across a third party site to check and verify all my rolls. The reason is you need to have your server seed, client seed and Nonce to verify your bets and enter manually all these strings of long data and if you are playing for a long time and if you want to verify everything it is going to take a very long time. I only play in a site i trust and i sometimes verify if i am on a loosing streak, if not i usually will not bother.

MCobian

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I can understand your suspicion of fairness that exists on gambling sites, sometimes I also experience the same thing.
When playing dice has 30 lost in row with win chance 47.5%, I always question the fairness of the gambling site. There
should be third party services that help do provably fair verification, instead of using provably fair verification from gambling
sites itself.

bobyhodob

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Quote from: jademaxsuy on August 29, 2020, 02:16:44 AM

Well, I do not know what kind of gambling platform you are talking about but I am pretty sure that there are too many sites you can try and can validate the fairness of the gambling site.

There are many gambling site to start with and this is why the best thing to do is to start looking first the best gambling platform. I bet the most stable gambling platform are those platform promoted here in the forum. This is an assurance because most of the gambling sites here are been operating for some time.

I think there are still some gambling places that still can't be fair because usually the fair possibility posts are only on or in front of the gambling site's website but sometimes they insert an encryption script that makes enemies often lose.

jademaxsuy

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Well, I do not know what kind of gambling platform you are talking about but I am pretty sure that there are too many sites you can try and can validate the fairness of the gambling site.

There are many gambling site to start with and this is why the best thing to do is to start looking first the best gambling platform. I bet the most stable gambling platform are those platform promoted here in the forum. This is an assurance because most of the gambling sites here are been operating for some time.

Darker45

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Quote from: Twentyonepaylots on August 28, 2020, 02:39:06 PM

Quote from: Darker45 on August 26, 2020, 09:38:47 PM

Gambling results may appear to be bullshit but they are truly what they are most of the time. It may be almost impossible to imagine to lose 28 consecutive hands in a blackjack but it happens. In the same manner that a dice game with 50% winning chance could also give you 30 consecutive losing rolls.

Well talking about probability, yes it could be, you could lose 30 times in a row but I really really doubt that the result will stick to a single outcome like all 50 high for 30 consecutive? It may happen but it is nearly impossible. It is different with blackjack, you can control your card in blackjack wherein if you lose that's all your fault.

It is nearly impossible until it happens. So, yeah, it happens.

You cannot control your card in blackjack. Every card dealt is random whether it uses a single deck or multiple decks. Of course, you may take a hit but, again, the additional card you will get is going to be random. And in a simulated blackjack game, you should still verify its fairness from time to time to make sure you are not being cheated.

Quidat

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Quote from: Natalim on August 28, 2020, 06:54:42 AM

Quote from: Lakai01 on August 27, 2020, 10:23:47 PM

Quote from: slaman29 on August 27, 2020, 06:07:06 AM

This was just discussed at one casino as well earlier today, I won't say names, but I think there is a misconception about what provably fair means. RNG systems that people respect and acknowledge aren't the same as PF. PF should mean you can verify on your own without relying on 3rd party sites.

That's what I am talking about. Provably Fair is very missleading, a large part of the players understands by it something, which is actually not meant and weighs itself in false security.
The problem here is that this can be exploited by casinos, which may scam their players(no payout of larger amounts, ...). It is enough to write "We are provably fair" on the website and you will get an unjustified trust advance.

Therefore I think OP has a point, do we have a 3rd party site that we can verify if the result of a certain site is really provably fair?
I'm still interested with it though I mostly focus on sports betting where it's not really necessary as games can be fix or not, I just have to be at the right side.

Comparing sports to those traditional dice and slot games are different but even though fixed games do really happen but verifying it would really be nearly impossible.
There are indeed sites that do verify out bets but most people doesnt care on checking things out as long they do deal with known or popular sites then they do
automatically consider that it is fair.This had been always a behavior on where people stick into places where majority is been playing presuming that the site
is already fair basing of on player numbers.

Topic: Verifying Provably Fair b.s. (Read 357 times)