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Topic: VOTE * Do you believe in "Intellectual Property" laws? (Read 2276 times)

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Another side of the same small mindedness.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/einstein-facts-science-genius/
Quote
In 1933, the FBI began keeping a dossier on Albert Einstein, shortly before his third trip to the U.S. This file would grow into 1,427 pages of documents focused on Einstein’s lifelong association with pacifist and socialist organizations. J. Edgar Hoover even recommended that Einstein be kept out of America by the Alien Exclusion Act, but he was overruled by the U.S. State Department.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
If intellectual property laws had existed centuries ago, there would have been no such thing as https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-facts-antikythera-mechanism-070029207.html
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
That is a myth.

So what of the drugs that save lives and take decades and billions of dollars to develop? Where's the incentive for anyone or anything to take the long view and do all that work for zero return?

Similarly there's no way I'd ever bother making a film or writing a book if entitled little shits decided my work had no value and just nicked it. I'll go and do something that will reward for me for my time.

That's a trade. If you were a plumber I wouldn't expect you to work for nothing.

Times that by an entire planet and it looks like a rather more desolate place.

Who really are the 'entitled little shits'?

It isn't about getting paid for work, it's about not getting powerful lawyers to help you extort ridiculous profits and prevent use by others of an idea that developed from old ideas anyway.

Regarding drugs etc. 99.9999999% of good medicines have been invented not for profit, and 99.99999999% of the toxic high profit poison passed as medicine comes from biopharma slugs trying to produce new chemicals to keep their jobs.

Drugs and biotech should be developed at Universities, where ethics are not hidden so easily.

The most profitable commercial drug ever was Lipitor. It has taken many billions of dollars from people and given the money to big pharma to pay for more lawyers and lobbyists to promote their other drugs http://www.winknews.com/2017/04/26/are-cholesterol-and-blood-pressure-drugs-necessary/

Are expensive pharma drugs really doing that much for people? Would humans suddenly stop living long lives if Pfizer isn't treated like a handicapped child that needs every possible accommodation?

For pharma companies it isn't about developing drugs or helping people, it's about making money https://consumerist.com/2017/04/26/lawsuit-epipen-price-hikes-were-intended-to-keep-competitor-out-of-pharmacies/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-28/novo-nordisk-is-sued-over-diabetes-drug-sales-practices

http://www.theintelligencer.net/news/top-headlines/2017/01/west-virginia-drug-company-agrees-to-pay-record-150m-settlement/

http://legalnewsline.com/stories/511077670-teva-will-pay-519-million-in-doj-settlement-over-fcpa-allegations

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/key-officials-switch-sides-from-dea-to-pharmaceutical-industry/2016/12/22/55d2e938-c07b-11e6-b527-949c5893595e_story.html

https://www.popsugar.com/news/Victoria-Starr-Historic-Johnson-Johnson-Settlement-42944055

Universities might be interested in developing medicines that work. Pharmaceutical companies want cash and they will use all kinds of tricks to get it.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1002
So what of the drugs that save lives and take decades and billions of dollars to develop? Where's the incentive for anyone or anything to take the long view and do all that work for zero return?
Not so long ago governments financed fundamental research. If we will kick out market fundamentalists from the power, a tax increase for the corporations will be enough to fund these developments.

Similarly there's no way I'd ever bother making a film or writing a book if entitled little shits decided my work had no value and just nicked it. I'll go and do something that will reward for me for my time.
For movies, music and books crowdfunding model can be used. You have some idea about good movie? People like it and want to watch, movie theaters want to make profit from showing it. Anyone will know that if requested amount won't be collected, there won't be this movie at all. So people who are interested in this film will gladly make a voluntary contribution to the film maker. Of course this model fill work if no state-enforced (=imposed by corporations) copyright exist.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3014
Welt Am Draht
That is a myth.

So what of the drugs that save lives and take decades and billions of dollars to develop? Where's the incentive for anyone or anything to take the long view and do all that work for zero return?

Similarly there's no way I'd ever bother making a film or writing a book if entitled little shits decided my work had no value and just nicked it. I'll go and do something that will reward for me for my time.

That's a trade. If you were a plumber I wouldn't expect you to work for nothing.

Times that by an entire planet and it looks like a rather more desolate place.
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1002
I think it is time to show protest against greedy corporations and IP laws they have lobbied by stopping buying movies, music and software! You can download Torrents anonymously through credible VPN like Mullvad or AirVPN, corporations won't be able to stop you and drop their greed finally!
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
I do.

It takes time and investment to create and those creators should be compensated. Certain ideas can't become reality without substantial backing. If that backing loses out then we're all the poorer for it.

That is a myth.

If intellectual property laws had started 5,000 years ago we would have virtually none of what we have today. The greatest inventions and art would have been confined to small circles while the world would have been blanketed by superficial crap.

I don't understand people like you. What makes people like you always take the side of the most powerful lobby on every issue, even when their arguments make no sense? Do you really believe that stifling creativity using economic penalties will make people have better ideas or create more? Do you really believe that if powerful lobbies are not allowed to control art, technology etc then there will be no more development?

Here is what happens when you use money to define the bounds of development. These articles from last week about one common medical procedure that has been performed for decades and which will not substantially decline because of these articles.

Note this article tries to discredit the news
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2017/05May/Pages/Keyhole-knee-surgery-is-waste-of-time-review-finds.aspx

While this one give facts
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/7312797-millions-of-health-dollars-wasted-on-useless-surgery-researcher/

Most people 'get' the message that the purpose of science, and art, according to people like you, is to make money. Patenting and acknowledging ip rights gives the stamp of approval to mediocrity, like the old snake oil salesmen whose patented products didn't need to actually do anything, they were patented after all.  

Regarding the two articles above, ask yourself why the NHS would take the side of minimizing that news.   
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3014
Welt Am Draht
I do.

It takes time and investment to create and those creators should be compensated. Certain ideas can't become reality without substantial backing. If that backing loses out then we're all the poorer for it.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 253
I'm not against intellectual property, but the use of pirated software and the replicas help the people in poor countries to have what they could never afford to buy the original. It's against global rules, but this is the only chance.
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
Intellectual Property is an innovation, something new. A person can make money or other benefit with it.
It is also about recognition. People need to be appreciated for their work.

Those two things are really important, so government should have law to regulate IP.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
IP protection is necessary. It's not evil. It actually promotes the growth of ideas, which benefits us all in the evolution of ideas, processes, technology, services, etc.

If we don't protect our ideas from those that want to steal those ideas and make money off them we will force people with great ideas to keep them to themselves or to charge more money for the products and services.

For those of you don't believe in intellectual property protection laws, do you believe it's OK and fair for one to steal your good idea and make money off of it?

People keep good ideas to themselves all the time and some great ideas may never see mass adoption simply because they are not promoted sufficiently to get to scale which is why it takes so long for innovation to become mainstream it takes skill to turn that good idea into money and good marketing, a few episodes of Dragons Den or Shark Tank demonstrate that.

Your argument however leans more towards patents when you mention stealing a good idea, as the argument is not on a reproduction of a work independently from the original but a creation. It does apply to music and movies which can be a copy of the original but you should clarify that a bit more.

On the topic I am amused that the Pirates were Pirated for those that don't know the current Pirates of The Caribbean is under siege so it seems like a good point to bring up. Also sigh the mainstream still thinks all you can get with Bitcoin are reddit gold cards that should be another topic of discussion....and made.

Today in news that practically demands that we repeat the word “pirate” as many times as possible, Deadline is reporting that hackers have stolen a copy of Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales and they’re threatening to release it online if Disney doesn’t pay a ransom. These movie pirates aren’t just looking for treasure chests full of doubloons, though—they want “an enormous amount of money” paid in Bitcoin, presumably so they can all live like kings with lifetime Reddit Gold subscriptions (or whatever else someone would buy with Bitcoin).

http://www.avclub.com/article/hackers-demand-disney-pay-bitcoin-ransom-or-theyll-255376
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Intellectual property is protected only in case if the person uses it for commercial purposes. I support the protection of intellectual property but on the other hand a lot of countries where people are very poor and they cannot afford to pay real money. On the other hand China in General is the king of plagiarism and provides fakes the whole world.
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 263
Who is going to spend a lot of time and money creating something if others can just copy their product freely without paying them a dime? IP isn't necessary for things that cost little to create but for other things that requires large investment its either IP or a government has to fund the development of those products.
In order to copy the product and start production of the necessary large finances. The Chinese economy received a good boost on this one, but that did not stop the Americans, the Japanese and the Europeans to establish a production there. I don't know what to do with the growing economy of China. I say this to the fact that the absence of copyright law and cheap labor is the key to prosperity in our world.
legendary
Activity: 3052
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
So who should pay the big costs of developing a movie? Because while individual piracy is rampant, television stations and cinemas can't get away with copying their work without pay so the movie studios survive.

Good. Actors and everyone in the movie industry is overpaid. I've illegally downloaded hundreds of movies, and I invite all readers to do the same. Ditto for music. Musicians should earn money performing, not selling recordings. Actors should be making money playing in theaters. Think that the world would count many more actors, musicians and singers than there is today, if all performance was live. Many artists cannot make a career today, because they can't compete with the promotion from the big stars of the largest studios.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
Who is going to spend a lot of time and money creating something if others can just copy their product freely without paying them a dime? IP isn't necessary for things that cost little to create but for other things that requires large investment its either IP or a government has to fund the development of those products.

The people who have taken control of your mind would have other people believe that the basis of intellectual property laws is a desire to enable more creativity, when the opposite is true. Your mind and thinking have been co opted by a powerful lobby and you are, in effect, a zombie.

George Orwell would have a field day.

Do you really believe that companies and individuals will stop inventing things if intellectual property laws are given their proper place?

Will the best singers and artists really say "Well, I guess I will quit singing/creating and get a job pumping gas?

Intellectual property thinking leads to mediocrity, and America is starting to excel at that, if nothing else.
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
Who is going to spend a lot of time and money creating something if others can just copy their product freely without paying them a dime? IP isn't necessary for things that cost little to create but for other things that requires large investment its either IP or a government has to fund the development of those products.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
IP protection is necessary. It's not evil. It actually promotes the growth of ideas, which benefits us all in the evolution of ideas, processes, technology, services, etc.

If we don't protect our ideas from those that want to steal those ideas and make money off them we will force people with great ideas to keep them to themselves or to charge more money for the products and services.

For those of you don't believe in intellectual property protection laws, do you believe it's OK and fair for one to steal your good idea and make money off of it?

100% of the ideas you have are derived, directly or indirectly from others' ideas in the past.

If you follow intellectual property to the extreme then you are not allowed to have any ideas, because they will directly or indirectly lead to your profiting from an idea somebody else had previously.

I get that you want to support "the intellectual property agenda" because you believe they are a powerful lobby and they have won most legal challenges so far.

The only people who support intellectual property laws are those who benefit from them directly and those who want to be on the side of the people who seem to be powerful at the moment.

Do you think that people with guns have an inherent right to eat better than those who have no guns?

Would you like a lobby to help you think it through?
hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 637
IP protection is necessary. It's not evil. It actually promotes the growth of ideas, which benefits us all in the evolution of ideas, processes, technology, services, etc.

If we don't protect our ideas from those that want to steal those ideas and make money off them we will force people with great ideas to keep them to themselves or to charge more money for the products and services.

For those of you don't believe in intellectual property protection laws, do you believe it's OK and fair for one to steal your good idea and make money off of it?
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
Intellectual Property in the United States has become increasingly more important in the last decade. The right to own one's genius is not a new concept. However, with the arrival of the digital age, it has become much harder to remain in control of one's intellectual property. Intellectual property has grown from the need to protect one's new invention, such as soap, to the need to protect a slogan or a color. In other words, intellectual property rights no longer protect solely the interest of preserving a trade secret; it is now the interest to preserve one's monetary gain.
The first form of intellectual property law was patent law. In 1790, Congress passed the first patent laws. These laws were modeled after European, patent, common law. Before Americans had the right to their intellectual property, it belonged to the King of England. If colonists wanted the rights to their inventions, they had to petition the state or ``the governing body of the colony[1].'' The first United States Patent Grant was signed by George Washington on July 31, 1790. Thomas Jefferson was the inspector, and together they issued the first American patent. Which was for a new method for making Potash. In 1790, the price of a patent was four dollars[2].

The Four Areas Covered by Intellectual Property: Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks and Trade Secrets.

Of the four areas, patents are the most common. Although they are difficult to obtain, they hold the strongest protection. Patents are grants from the government giving exclusive rights to ``make, use, and sell a product for 20 years.'' Their attributes include providing strong protection, and total exclusivity. Their downsides include long expensive, technical processes, and inventors must make all the details of their product known to the public. One must apply to the Federal government for a patent. Patents protect ``novel, useful, non-obvious and intangible'' ideas[3].

It sounds like you copy/pasted from the website of some ip lawyer.

Start with your first sentence "Intellectual Property in the United States has become increasingly more important in the last decade.". Important to whom? Lawyers? Lobbyists?

Nobody disputes that short lived patents can be helpful. The question is more whether it is good to try to intimidate scientists into following a very low level, short term set of laws meant only to protect a few major industries.

Artists and entertainers, for example, are not going to starve if they are good, but especially they are not going to try to squeeze every last dollar out of their art if they are decent.

For scientists even more true. Look at the link in the original post https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/fbi-xi-xiaoxing.html

A group of fbi agents does not like that guy, for whatever reason, so they use the law to target him. That is the only use of laws like that, targeting people or preventing others from getting some benefit you have. You can argue up and down but really common sense is what you should use rather than rhetorical tricks.

The scientist in that article might or might not have been brilliant, but I guarantee that he is less brilliant now, less productive, more cautious. As are many of his colleagues who are now aware that they must be wary of attacks from the fbi. Is it really worth it? America has been driven into the ground by petty attacks on harmless things while the really harmful things are acceptable. Got an idea and want to develop it? Be careful. Got a badge and want to show a scientist that you are bigger than him? Go for it.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Intellectual Property in the United States has become increasingly more important in the last decade. The right to own one's genius is not a new concept. However, with the arrival of the digital age, it has become much harder to remain in control of one's intellectual property. Intellectual property has grown from the need to protect one's new invention, such as soap, to the need to protect a slogan or a color. In other words, intellectual property rights no longer protect solely the interest of preserving a trade secret; it is now the interest to preserve one's monetary gain.
The first form of intellectual property law was patent law. In 1790, Congress passed the first patent laws. These laws were modeled after European, patent, common law. Before Americans had the right to their intellectual property, it belonged to the King of England. If colonists wanted the rights to their inventions, they had to petition the state or ``the governing body of the colony[1].'' The first United States Patent Grant was signed by George Washington on July 31, 1790. Thomas Jefferson was the inspector, and together they issued the first American patent. Which was for a new method for making Potash. In 1790, the price of a patent was four dollars[2].

The Four Areas Covered by Intellectual Property: Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks and Trade Secrets.

Of the four areas, patents are the most common. Although they are difficult to obtain, they hold the strongest protection. Patents are grants from the government giving exclusive rights to ``make, use, and sell a product for 20 years.'' Their attributes include providing strong protection, and total exclusivity. Their downsides include long expensive, technical processes, and inventors must make all the details of their product known to the public. One must apply to the Federal government for a patent. Patents protect ``novel, useful, non-obvious and intangible'' ideas[3].
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