Topic: Vote for Bitcoinica Leverage Change Proposal - page 3. (Read 4503 times)
Getting rid of the asterisk would be useful. I'm not sure how I'd vote.
It is still possible to game this by creating multiple accounts and doing a coordinated trade.
Bitcoinica is doomed.
Bitcoinica is doomed.
I like the proposal as on its face it addresses the limited reserves issue which seems key to me.
However, the use of multiple accounts for coordinated trades would only require a bit of bot work for those so inclined to implement it. There's someone both prepared to do so and chomping at the bit to try it, any other assumption would likely be wrong in a day or two anyway. It could be done with computer-directed meat-based mouse actuators sort of like one of those CAPTCHA-breaking type operations, but going the bot route would be easier to manage and cheaper for what would likely be a "what works today" effort, particularly if it eventually kills the host organism
The leverage Bitcoinica can handle is its problem to decide. Perhaps you need to cap everyone at 2.5:1 or 5:1 until you can grow the reserves more. I imagine that how that affects your profitability would also be part of striking a balance.
EDIT:
I am "neutral". If Bitcoinica continues to bite off more than it can chew, I would expect it to fail.
Big clients are using the reserves all the time, and it's definitely unfair if we don't have the money to back their trading potential. If just 2% of the customers were limited to 2.5:1 we wouldn't have to see the asterisk.
Even, if you will go this way, new limits should not affect old orders and positions (because it will be violation of contract).
This all adds up to 5 to 1 on avg for everyone..
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
Liquidations happen because irrational people overleverage. There is a big warning about this when they sign up. I was long 100 BTC during the drop, but I still had enough margin to buy 50@$5.15 before it recovered. I'm back in the green already.
If you don't like bitcoinica, fine, but let those of us who use it communicate with Zhoutong instead of slinging insults.
Im not slinging insults, I made a modest 3 bitcoins from this mess, no complaints..
But I see a bigger issue here, you should open your eyes..
Exactly. Don't change the system because people don't know what they are doing. We all are aware of the risks and this should be a lesson to those that overextended themselves. Unless this is something Bitcoinica needs to do to be profitable, leave it alone or move up and onward.
Big clients are using the reserves all the time, and it's definitely unfair if we don't have the money to back their trading potential. If just 2% of the customers were limited to 2.5:1 we wouldn't have to see the asterisk.
lower max trade to 10BTC and raise leverage to 100:1. You just want gamblers not institutional traders.
if you don't trade on Bitcoinica please leave this discussion to those who do.
I believe that people with large accounts will generally vote for "disagree" since they are the impacted ones.
However, we hope everyone can understand for each other, even at the free market.
However, we hope everyone can understand for each other, even at the free market.
Oh! How noble of the great zoutong! "For each other" and "free market" in the same sentence. Still trying to parse.
I dunno, personally I think things like leverage and usury are not really "for each other". Also, how about leverage being based on how much capital you ACTUALLY hold in reserve? Seems like the heritage of bitcoin is not keen on fractional reserve.
1. There is no interest on loans... thus no usery.
2. Allowing others people to take responsibility for as much risk as they want is very "free market". Restricting this when it's possible is not.
I trade on leverage, I was long, I didn't get liquidated. I've taken big losses before and I'm willing to accept losses again if I make a bad call.
lower max trade to 10BTC and raise leverage to 100:1. You just want gamblers not institutional traders.
Exactly. Don't change the system because people don't know what they are doing. We all are aware of the risks and this should be a lesson to those that overextended themselves. Unless this is something Bitcoinica needs to do to be profitable, leave it alone or move up and onward.
I believe that people with large accounts will generally vote for "disagree" since they are the impacted ones.
However, we hope everyone can understand for each other, even at the free market.
However, we hope everyone can understand for each other, even at the free market.
Oh! How noble of the great zoutong! "For each other" and "free market" in the same sentence. Still trying to parse.
I dunno, personally I think things like leverage and usury are not really "for each other". Also, how about leverage being based on how much capital you ACTUALLY hold in reserve? Seems like the heritage of bitcoin is not keen on fractional reserve.
This all adds up to 5 to 1 on avg for everyone..
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
Liquidations happen because irrational people overleverage. There is a big warning about this when they sign up. I was long 100 BTC during the drop, but I still had enough margin to buy 50@$5.15 before it recovered. I'm back in the green already.
If you don't like bitcoinica, fine, but let those of us who use it communicate with Zhoutong instead of slinging insults.
Currently, even 2.5:1 for a huge account is a lot of leverage! $20,000 will get you $50,000 tradable balance.
a lot..
put $20,000 into real fx on oanda.com and you'll get a million-dollar tradeable balance.
i say increase leverage, or leave it alone.
edit: i see pirate likes the idea of 50:1 also
I believe that people with large accounts will generally vote for "disagree" since they are the impacted ones.
So they should read your proposition as following:
"I, Zhoutong, decide to take money from your current positions
under the cover of "democracy" label"
Public Proposal: Change of Leverage Options.
Due to recent volatility, a lot of traders were forced liquidated and caused a snowball effect: forced liquidation causes more forced liquidations due to excessive market movements.
Also, we want to make sure that Bitcoinica always has reserves for traders. We hope the asterisk will not appear frequently in the future.
Therefore, I propose a solution to such problems. Since this solution may negatively impact some of our customers, we want to hear the voice of the public. This is how the implementation will be decided:
If Agree > Disagree, we will implement this change. If Disagree > Agree, we will not implement this change and we will consider other options.
Neutral votes will be ignored at the moment.
If you have better ideas, please voice out and we will consider.
So what's the change?
-------------------------
If your margin balance is less than $2,000 (inc.), you can set leverage to 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
If your margin balance is between $2,000 (exc.) and $20,000 (inc.), you can set leverage to 10:1, 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
If your margin balance is greater than $20,000 (exc.), you can set leverage to 50:1, 10:1, 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
This is to protect our customers' interest and maintain market volatility at low levels by preventing huge forced liquidations as much as possible. Also, less funds will be used up by large clients so we will have more available reserves.
Now, please vote!
Due to recent volatility, a lot of traders were forced liquidated and caused a snowball effect: forced liquidation causes more forced liquidations due to excessive market movements.
Also, we want to make sure that Bitcoinica always has reserves for traders. We hope the asterisk will not appear frequently in the future.
Therefore, I propose a solution to such problems. Since this solution may negatively impact some of our customers, we want to hear the voice of the public. This is how the implementation will be decided:
If Agree > Disagree, we will implement this change. If Disagree > Agree, we will not implement this change and we will consider other options.
Neutral votes will be ignored at the moment.
If you have better ideas, please voice out and we will consider.
So what's the change?
-------------------------
If your margin balance is less than $2,000 (inc.), you can set leverage to 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
If your margin balance is between $2,000 (exc.) and $20,000 (inc.), you can set leverage to 10:1, 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
If your margin balance is greater than $20,000 (exc.), you can set leverage to 50:1, 10:1, 5:1, 2.5:1 and 1:1.
This is to protect our customers' interest and maintain market volatility at low levels by preventing huge forced liquidations as much as possible. Also, less funds will be used up by large clients so we will have more available reserves.
Now, please vote!
I made some adjustments. This works better.
gotta keep the zombies alive.
Overall loss in recent 24 hours: less than 20%.
Strongly disagree.
You should take voices into account according to margin ballance.
You should take voices into account according to margin ballance.
I believe that people with large accounts will generally vote for "disagree" since they are the impacted ones.
However, we hope everyone can understand for each other, even at the free market. We will revise the threshold amount when our reserves are larger. (We will lift the threshold to $5,000 and $50,000 when our reserves reach $1 million, and we can hopefully reach there in 6 months.)
Currently, even 2.5:1 for a huge account is a lot of leverage! $20,000 will get you $50,000 tradable balance.
gotta keep the zombies alive.
This all adds up to 5 to 1 on avg for everyone..
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
I fail to see how this will help volatility.
Is not a delayed liquidation one way to go ? albeit hard
The liquidations happen because of the faux liquid market you are building here..
On further thought, its more like 4 to 1 levy for everyone
It is still possible to game this by creating multiple accounts and doing a coordinated trade.
Bitcoinica is doomed.
Bitcoinica is doomed.
Most successful parasite species avoid sucking their host completely dry. Good call on the tiered leverage.
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