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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 15299. (Read 26717059 times)

legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 3038
Does the blockchain still have a purpose with LN on ? Educate me !

Yes, it serves two purposes:

1.  If one of your counter parties attempts to settle an old channel state on the blockchain (e.g., a channel state where you held fewer coins), you or your LN-bank acting on your behalf,

Or anyone else, acually.

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must push the up-to-date channel state to avoid being defrauded.  This also means your funds in the LN channels are always "live."

The would-be fraudsters would pay with their whole channel stake. If this isn't a good enough deterrent...
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 3038
You are the one who asserted cartelization. Who exactly does this posited cartel consist of?
And you replied BTC is as cartelized as BCH (which I don't think is a correct statement).
Cartel consisting of plainly visible J.Wu and R.Ver, plus some likely big shots of the PBOC/Chinese Party/Government who (will) use then (especially Wu) as a sock puppet as soon as the need arises.

Again, the set of miners for BCH is identical to the set of miners for BTC. Which renders irrelevant the following bit:
The potential set is.

Miners have exactly as much control in Bitcoin Cash as they do in Bitcoin Segwit.
They might have a little more control in Bitcoin than in Bcash, because they don't have Sauron with the master ring above them.


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Censorship can happen. Moderate (or unreasonable!) inflation can be programmed as a "fair reward" for miners (most likely friends of the Party), who would become something like a miniature Central Bank, with similar privileges and arbitrary power.
I would suggest you are ignoring fundamental dynamics of nakamoto consensus. The miners are held in check by the threat of the users abandoning the chain they create.
They seem to be abandoning Bcash. As long as there's the original chain to rely on, we're good.


Yeah. We've already discussed these very points, have we not? Why you continue to ignore my replies is beyond my ken.
Quote
Not ignoring, but I feel stuck in a loop and it's bad for my health!  Tongue

Well, that I can understand. I realize that my viewpoints are not share by the majority here on BCT.org. And I am fine with us having a disagreement on the desired direction forward. What I am not OK with is mischaracterization. One example thereof: "The "more reason" I was (and am) asking of you is an effective, documented rebuttal of my points or some subjective reason that goes beyond "I like big big big! Blocks big, me happy!"" Obviously, my replies to you have been more than "I like big big big"..., and for you to characterize it as such is not only uncharitable, it is either lazy or dishonest. Frankly, while I expect that from some here, I did not expect it from you.
Right. You arguments are generally much better than "big big big!". The problem with you is you mix fact and opinion/construction in a clever way, and separating chaff from grain is hard work. So I was just trying to have some fun explaining why I find there's a point beyond which it's not worthwhile to extend the discussion. Some people are pissed off by lengthy debates that run in circles.

You must admit, however, than the childhood trauma gag ("bitten by a small block") was quite funny  Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 298
Merit: 253
Is it time for the Federal Reserve to join the cryptocurrency craze? : http://fortune.com/2017/12/26/bitcoin-fed-coin/



The Chinese were discussing creating a gov coin, and the USA won't want to miss out.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 512
It would be so nice if you Bcash types would just fuck off and take your scammy shit coin along with you. Really.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1010
If the hash power majority is dishonest, they can re-org the blockchain at will such that the transactions that created your coins never occurred in the re-orged blockchain.  

By removing 80% of the hashpower (the ones that can afford terabytes of storage)? Genius!
Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous

The cost to run a node is insignificant to the cost to set up a solo-mining operation.  This will remain true even at GB blocks.  Do the math and this becomes obvious.

If you want to further decentralize mining, it would be better to push more people to run ASIC miners than to run nodes.  At least with an ASIC miner they'll have influence by pointing their miner at a pool they support.  
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
sr. member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 293
"Be Your Own Bank"
Is it time for the Federal Reserve to join the cryptocurrency craze? : http://fortune.com/2017/12/26/bitcoin-fed-coin/

hero member
Activity: 750
Merit: 601
I don’t need to trust anyone. It’s a pain if miners collude and 51% attack me, but with a full node I just fail to get new blocks and together with others (probably everyone else) we are forced to change to a new set of miners who behave and use the real Bitcoin rules.

But this is another discussion,  and is irelevant to my point, which I will restate.... if I can’t run a full node I need to trust miners.
Don’t shift the argument, address the real issue!


I don't know why this belief is pervasive with small blockers, especially since the white paper says the opposite.  

If the hash power majority is dishonest, they can re-org the blockchain at will such that the transactions that created your coins never occurred in the re-orged blockchain.  

This is Bitcoin 101.  You have to trust that the hash power majority remains honest.  


So what you are saying is because the miners can re-org the chain back to when my coins were a reward, probably 1000s of blocks ago, this risk means I should now accept all other more immediate and subtle  risks they can throw at me.
Disappearing coins I can detect without a full node, but changes to inflation rules I can’t.
You are asking everyone to accept more risk, but you aren’t being honest about it.

Why don’t you come out and say it straight, big blocks will increase the trust required in miners, and it represents an increased risk to your financial sovereignty, it’s indisputable, the only thing to argue over is the magnitude.
legendary
Activity: 3388
Merit: 4775
diamond-handed zealot
amazing tits and ass.



finally

some quality TA in this thread
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 101
If the hash power majority is dishonest, they can re-org the blockchain at will such that the transactions that created your coins never occurred in the re-orged blockchain.  

By removing 80% of the hashpower (the ones that can afford terabytes of storage)? Genius!
Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1010
I don’t need to trust anyone. It’s a pain if miners collude and 51% attack me, but with a full node I just fail to get new blocks and together with others (probably everyone else) we are forced to change to a new set of miners who behave and use the real Bitcoin rules.

But this is another discussion,  and is irelevant to my point, which I will restate.... if I can’t run a full node I need to trust miners.
Don’t shift the argument, address the real issue!


I don't know why this belief is pervasive with small blockers, especially since the white paper says the opposite.  

If the hash power majority is dishonest, they can re-org the blockchain at will such that the transactions that created your coins never occurred in the re-orged blockchain.  

This is Bitcoin 101.  You have to trust that the hash power majority remains honest.  
hero member
Activity: 750
Merit: 601
This myth that non-mining nodes don't matter is the most dangerous the big blockers are forced to peddle, simply because  it drops out of the big block argument as a necessity.

Not at all. If we make ability to run a node by every pissant participant on their lowest common denominator hardware a requirement, Bitcoin Segwit disqualifies itself as well.

You fail to address the issue, I don’t want to trust miners, if I can’t run a full non-mining node, I have to trust them not to change the rules.
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
This myth that non-mining nodes don't matter is the most dangerous the big blockers are forced to peddle, simply because  it drops out of the big block argument as a necessity.

Not at all. If we make ability to run a node by every pissant participant on their lowest common denominator hardware a requirement, Bitcoin Segwit disqualifies itself as well.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1010
Does the blockchain still have a purpose with LN on ? Educate me !

Yes, it serves two purposes:

1.  If one of your counter parties attempts to settle an old channel state on the blockchain (e.g., a channel state where you held fewer coins), you or your LN-bank acting on your behalf, must push the up-to-date channel state to avoid being defrauded.  This also means your funds in the LN channels are always "live."

2.  Blockchain transactions would likely be needed in order to "re-balance" LN-channels that have run dry of funds.  

That said, I don't think the average user would have any need to interact directly with the blockchain any longer.  The blockchain would be purely for settlement-type transactions and fraud disputes.
elg
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 104
Dankjewel voor alle tijd en moeite micgoossens,
Betaal je de prijs uit je eigen zak?

Ja toch wel en graag gedaan .... beetje spanning soms moet al eens kunnen toch....

Goed gedaan dan! Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 293
"Be Your Own Bank"

"LIGHTNING HITS BITCOIN MAINNET

As cryptocurrency trader and commentator Vortex noted on Christmas Day, Lightning’s RC1 has had a tentative release and “mainnet (transactions) have been completed.”

The Lightning Network is perhaps the most hotly-awaited so-called ‘layer two’ upgrade for the Bitcoin network. Once active, users will be able to send BTC funds practically instantaneously for next to no fee."

https://bitcoinist.com/lightning-network-mainnet-beta-soon/





legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
- BCH doesn't fix transaction malleabilty,
Transaction malleability is not a problem in practice. Any of its effects are easily mitigated.

FWIW, though, the majority opinion within the Bitcoin Cash community is that we will implement a malleability fix. When higher priority issues are in the rearview.
ruling out L2 solutions
No. While it is true that eliminating malleability simplifies known L2 solutions, in no way prevents them.
Preventing them to the point of making them too hard to implement reliably - at least, as of now. If the emergency situation grants hurrying to hardfork a blocksize change, why not fix transaction malleability first?

Because transaction malleability -- as you seem to tacitly acknowledge -- causes no problems in practice. OTOH, the block size limitation has rendered Bitcoin Segwit unusable for most common commercial activities. Why on earth would we solve a non-problem before solving an acute and crippling problem?

which are the scaling solution in the medium (possibly long) term.
Perhaps. Though I point out that any transaction on any known L2 is by definition not a Bitcoin transaction. Accordingly, less interesting.

Any L2 solution proven in practice -- including being free of negative side effects -- is likely to be picked up by the Bitcoin Cash chain.
Less interesting, but isn't the point about functionality rather than academic interest?

As long is it is Bitcoin functionality, yes. Ergo...

- BCH is controlled by a cartel.
No more so than Bitcoin Segwit. Less so in fact. Six independent leading implementations of non-mining, fully validating wallets (often mis referred to as 'nodes') as opposed to Bitcoin Segwit's Core implementation's market dominance.
Offhand innuendo, pff. The attitude behind this reply is one of the reasons I got tired of replying.  I am referring to the number of active developers (not just the ones with commit rights!). The fact that one client is more popular on the main bitcoin fork doesn't mean it's controlled by a cartel. Open source development and free client choice produced this result.

You are the one who asserted cartelization. Who exactly does this posited cartel consist of?

Their coders are clueless.
Again, simply false.
To me, the mess they made with the fork and the EDA is the mark of incompetence.

The mess they made with the EDA? The EDA served its declared purpose perfectly. It ensured the validity of the BCH chain in its infancy.

The cartel is likely under the heavy hand of PBOC.
Again, no more so than Bitcoin Segwit. The miner population is identical between the two chains.
Another prime example of offhand innuendo in my probably biased opinion - and, most importantly, factually incorrect for all I know. Nearly all miners for BCH are in China.

Again, the set of miners for BCH is identical to the set of miners for BTC. Which renders irrelevant the following bit:

to gain control.
What exactly do you mean by this?
I mean taking control of Bitcoin by replacing it with Bcash.

Miners have exactly as much control in Bitcoin Cash as they do in Bitcoin Segwit.

- Big blocks will stifle adoption.
If you believe that the measure of adoption is number of non-mining, fully-validating wallets, then you may have a point. However, it has been demonstrated to my satisfaction that non-mining, fully-validating wallets have fuck-all to do with network health.
It hasn't been demonstrated to my satisfaction, though. Some things show their value only when they are sorely missed. Full nodes are one of these things IMO.

I do understand that is the prevalent dogma.

Yes, that's the old "Raspberry pi in rural Afghanistan" argument. Even I, not in rural Afghanistan, would stop my own homespun node (not a pi though) if pressed by bandwidth and storage limits.
Testing has demonstrated that an average 'home computer' on an average 'domestic broadband' connection can handle up to 100 tx/s with no architectural changes to the satoshi client, and 500 tx/s merely by fixing that client's broken threading implementation.
My bandwidth can't.

Really? You can't spare 3Mb/s?

Yeah. We've already discussed these very points, have we not? Why you continue to ignore my replies is beyond my ken.
Not ignoring, but I feel stuck in a loop and it's bad for my health!  Tongue

Well, that I can understand. I realize that my viewpoints are not share by the majority here on BCT.org. And I am fine with us having a disagreement on the desired direction forward. What I am not OK with is mischaracterization. One example thereof: "The "more reason" I was (and am) asking of you is an effective, documented rebuttal of my points or some subjective reason that goes beyond "I like big big big! Blocks big, me happy!"" Obviously, my replies to you have been more than "I like big big big"..., and for you to characterize it as such is not only uncharitable, it is either lazy or dishonest. Frankly, while I expect that from some here, I did not expect it from you.
sr. member
Activity: 298
Merit: 253

The banks in the west are closed and bitcoin's still pumping. What happens when they open again and those wires start reaching exchanges?
hero member
Activity: 750
Merit: 601
Further, I believe it likely that massive adoption will lead to huge numbers of nodes - naturally. Every common consumer has little reason to run such a non-mining, fully-validating wallet.

But I want to run a full node, and with huge blocks I don't even have a choice.
(SPV is a middle ground but not sufficient)
You are forcing me to trust someone.
In fact you are forcing me to trust the miners who are driven by incentives that do not align with my own.
In the future they may change the rules and I wouldn't even know, and if I did know, there would be little I could do to about it.

This myth that non-mining nodes don't matter is the most dangerous the big blockers are forced to peddle, simply because  it drops out of the big block argument as a necessity.
The ability to run a full validating node is not optional, it is a requirement, and any fork that prevents this functionality fails the community.

We must not compromise the security of Bitcoin to help it scale.



Bitcoin has never been trustless.  If you're using Bitcoin, you already trust that no group of colluding attackers controls more hash power than honest nodes.  If the hash power majority is colluding to defraud users, bitcoin is not secure.  This is simply a fact.  There is nothing an army of raspberry-pi nodes can do to change this fact. 
 

I don’t need to trust anyone. It’s a pain if miners collude and 51% attack me, but with a full node I just fail to get new blocks and together with others (probably everyone else) we are forced to change to a new set of miners who behave and use the real Bitcoin rules.

But this is another discussion,  and is irelevant to my point, which I will restate.... if I can’t run a full node I need to trust miners.
Don’t shift the argument, address the real issue!
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1010
LN feels like ripple

The only way I can see LN working is with a few large hubs that users "open accounts with" and in a way that those users doesn't actually control private keys.  LN = modernized banking.  
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