There are many Bitcoin people here (because hey, this IS a Bitcoin WO thread) that have disagreements and legitimate concerns about the future of Bitcoin: Joe public adoption worries, merchant adoption worries, SegWit adoption worries, scaling worries, worries about how LN will work, worries about the power/centralization of the miners, etc. I think on some level that all of us share these concerns to some degree. And there is nothing wrong about revisiting these debates from time to time as long as it is honest and agnostic discussion.
But the thing that separates these people from the true Bitcoin trolls and alt shills is the fact that they are still pro-Bitcoin. They WANT Bitcoin to succeed and thrive long term. They have no hidden anti-Bitcoin agenda, or trying to covertly shill for an altcoin (BCH). They don't spend every moment with every post spewing anti-Bitcoin propaganda, or slyly trying to strike up a supposedly "agnostic" debate or concern, only to have their real hidden agenda slowly revealed through the way that they are debating (i.e. breadcrumbing, straw-manning, playing dumb, rebuttal of every single point, ignoring valid counter-points, supposedly have the 'real inside knowledge', leading with the sympathy/empathy card, etc.).
No common ground is ever found with a troll/shill, because they're not looking to find common ground. They are not looking to have some honest debate. They are trying to disrupt and create an emotional reaction, that is all. And in this forum's case, they are looking to disrupt and dissuade belief in Bitcoin's long term dominance and viability. In fact, they are part of a large scale campaign to do so, and it is reasonable to assume that some of them are getting paid for their effort.
The thing that the trolls apparently don't get is we are all too familiar with all of their stupid tactics. The art of internet trolling is well documented and has been around for some time. So they are pretty easy to spot.
https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/5wslia/internet_troll_tactics/
Some of you guys can engage with the trolls all you want, the rest of us will just put them on /ignore. But please stop trying to 'defend' them and their actions. And if you are so blind that you can't see that they only show up when Bitcoin is falling and BCash is getting pumped, then you need to seek help.
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 15835. (Read 26620660 times)
November 18, 2017, 01:10:58 PM
November 18, 2017, 01:07:22 PM
I've only deleted a handful of his posts.
This has taken a lot of self control over the months. I always cringe when he posts because virtually every post is a direct or indirect attack on bitcoin, or a promotion of BCH.
He does sometimes have legitimate points, but they don't need to be repeated ad nauseam. Also, the thread was never about altcoins. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he has a somewhat privileged position in this thread due to his length of time participating in it, and his relatively thoughtful posts.
During busy times, I often have a few messages asking me to review certain posts, so I take those suggestions into consideration as well.
I'll also be the first to admit that I may be a less than stellar moderator.
This has taken a lot of self control over the months. I always cringe when he posts because virtually every post is a direct or indirect attack on bitcoin, or a promotion of BCH.
He does sometimes have legitimate points, but they don't need to be repeated ad nauseam. Also, the thread was never about altcoins. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he has a somewhat privileged position in this thread due to his length of time participating in it, and his relatively thoughtful posts.
During busy times, I often have a few messages asking me to review certain posts, so I take those suggestions into consideration as well.
I'll also be the first to admit that I may be a less than stellar moderator.
i'd help you mod however i'm already too busy with other forums :-D >.> thanks for your commitment!
November 18, 2017, 01:06:15 PM
so jbreher is censored but ruphej is allowed to post less than zero value annoyances every other post...makes total sense 
If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
jbreher is actively trying to destroy bitcoin.
ruphej is annoying, but mostly harmless so far. I've already deleted more of his posts than jbreher's though.
There are plenty of resources out there to educate yourself about the big block vs. small block debate.
November 18, 2017, 01:03:42 PM
I've only deleted a handful of his posts.
This has taken a lot of self control over the months. I always cringe when he posts because virtually every post is a direct or indirect attack on bitcoin, or a promotion of BCH.
He does sometimes have legitimate points, but they don't need to be repeated ad nauseam. Also, the thread was never about altcoins. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he has a somewhat privileged position in this thread due to his length of time participating in it, and his relatively thoughtful posts.
During busy times, I often have a few messages asking me to review certain posts, so I take those suggestions into consideration as well.
I'll also be the first to admit that I may be a less than stellar moderator.
This has taken a lot of self control over the months. I always cringe when he posts because virtually every post is a direct or indirect attack on bitcoin, or a promotion of BCH.
He does sometimes have legitimate points, but they don't need to be repeated ad nauseam. Also, the thread was never about altcoins. As I mentioned in an earlier post, he has a somewhat privileged position in this thread due to his length of time participating in it, and his relatively thoughtful posts.
During busy times, I often have a few messages asking me to review certain posts, so I take those suggestions into consideration as well.
I'll also be the first to admit that I may be a less than stellar moderator.
November 18, 2017, 12:42:12 PM
Could it be...
Any curse of oak island fans here? Season 5 just started!
if you don't know Oak Island, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island_mystery
edit: oh, to make it somehow related. I bet the big mystery of oak island is satoshis private key hidden deep inside of the money pit.
Any curse of oak island fans here? Season 5 just started!
if you don't know Oak Island, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island_mystery
edit: oh, to make it somehow related. I bet the big mystery of oak island is satoshis private key hidden deep inside of the money pit.
when is wikipedia going to start accepting bitcoin for donations? hmmm?
~n00bs 
November 18, 2017, 12:38:44 PM
Could it be...
Any curse of oak island fans here? Season 5 just started!
if you don't know Oak Island, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island_mystery
edit: oh, to make it somehow related. I bet the big mystery of oak island is satoshis private key hidden deep inside of the money pit.
Any curse of oak island fans here? Season 5 just started!
if you don't know Oak Island, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Island_mystery
edit: oh, to make it somehow related. I bet the big mystery of oak island is satoshis private key hidden deep inside of the money pit.
November 18, 2017, 12:31:56 PM
I heard a great quote the other day on a podcast, made me laugh.
The speaker said that the world current social events unfolding was "You know, like in that movie 'They Live'.... but instead of just the protagonist having the sunglasses, suddenly everyone has a pair."
The speaker said that the world current social events unfolding was "You know, like in that movie 'They Live'.... but instead of just the protagonist having the sunglasses, suddenly everyone has a pair."
Ahhh such a classic film, along with Network
November 18, 2017, 12:19:02 PM
They can always participate in other threads, those have different mods. This one is particularly special. And again, they are free to launch their own threads. He already did and it's self moderated too.
November 18, 2017, 12:09:42 PM
About jbreher's posts, I also think they shouldn't have been deleted. As much as I disagree with him, I like reading his way of thinking and don't mind his posts. If I don't want to read them or any other's posts, I just scroll down... I think the removal of posts should be reserved only for seriously offensive material.
It is not even about him specifically, but about people like him. The sooner we start identifying and shutting down people who want to damage bitcoin the better for the rest of us. Even if many of you don't see why this would be important. You can't win a war if you deliberately handicap yourself. 
November 18, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
This weekend's battle appears to be much less intense than the previous one. It seems that the majority of current BTC owners are genuine investors and HoDLers, and are not here to play the BTC/BCH/airdrop game. This strengthens the BTC side, and attracts more genuine investors that buy away the small dips that appear. Come Monday, a new BTC pump will surely restore the weekend's lost ground and take us to new heights, a string of ATHs, and eventually into 5-digit territory at the end of the year. This will be the t-0 for the rocket launch.
Go BTC go!
About jbreher's posts, I also think they shouldn't have been deleted. As much as I disagree with him, I like reading his way of thinking and don't mind his posts. If I don't want to read them or any other's posts, I just scroll down... I think the removal of posts should be reserved only for seriously offensive material.
Go BTC go!
About jbreher's posts, I also think they shouldn't have been deleted. As much as I disagree with him, I like reading his way of thinking and don't mind his posts. If I don't want to read them or any other's posts, I just scroll down... I think the removal of posts should be reserved only for seriously offensive material.
November 18, 2017, 12:00:26 PM
It is not useful to allow dishonest people to operate in a rules based environment where the ultimate foundation of the entire project is honesty.
Bitcoin is whatever the consensus mechanism decides it is. That was the original idea and one of the foundational pillars of what makes bitcoin as an idea able to function at all, and the result is in. Continuing to complain about it, and even going to far as to split the blockchain in two, is nothing short of an attempt to undermine bitcoin as a whole. They are enemies, not only of the personal wealth of many of us here, but far more importantly they are enemies of a lifeboat for countless millions of people when the economy collapses. They are, in a word, evil, right down to their core.
Bitcoin is whatever the consensus mechanism decides it is. That was the original idea and one of the foundational pillars of what makes bitcoin as an idea able to function at all, and the result is in. Continuing to complain about it, and even going to far as to split the blockchain in two, is nothing short of an attempt to undermine bitcoin as a whole. They are enemies, not only of the personal wealth of many of us here, but far more importantly they are enemies of a lifeboat for countless millions of people when the economy collapses. They are, in a word, evil, right down to their core.
I agree. Consensus is very hard to achieve which guarantees very little change happens and change that is controversial never happens.
November 18, 2017, 11:55:58 AM
so jbreher is censored but ruphej is allowed to post less than zero value annoyances every other post...makes total sense
If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
Sophism is the opposite of philosophy. If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
November 18, 2017, 11:55:33 AM
You can be your own moderator using the ignore button.
It is not useful to allow dishonest people to operate in a rules based environment where the ultimate foundation of the entire project is honesty.Bitcoin is whatever the consensus mechanism decides it is. That was the original idea and one of the foundational pillars of what makes bitcoin as an idea able to function at all, and the result is in. Continuing to complain about it, and even going to far as to split the blockchain in two, is nothing short of an attempt to undermine bitcoin as a whole. They are enemies, not only of the personal wealth of many of us here, but far more importantly they are enemies of a lifeboat for countless millions of people when the economy collapses. They are, in a word, evil, right down to their core.
Not sure how to reach consensus when you just shut people up that don't agree with your vision. All these opposing views, forks and altcoins make Bitcoin stronger. Bitcoin does not need protection. It needs to battle all kind of storms to harden up: we have seen nothing yet.
And in the end there is always the ignore button. Neither Bitcoin or I have any need for anyone deciding what we can or can't read or say.
November 18, 2017, 11:53:29 AM
Nobody is for censorship, but if you think you can have "discussion" with jbreher you are welcome to try it yourself. He just spams nonsense based on pulling what is being said out of context. That's reflected in his style of writing where he randomly quotes dozen of posts, and then using that to avoid any reasonable argument. If that kind of "discussion" is forced elsewhere it is not a loss, it's a gain IMHO.
+1 for moderators.
+1 for moderators.
You can be your own moderator using the ignore button.
For the same purpose I use as example a Picasso's painting. It's just some dry paint on a board, total value $30, but it's worth millions. I like it because beside its price the number of picassos's painting is limited exactly like bitcoins, and the total capitalizations are alike.
I can make a digital copy of the Picasso painting and call it Picasso Cash. I even print the piece on an 8 times larger piece of canvas. This certainly reduces the value of the legacy Picasso painting to zero and makes me the true Picasso.
Mostly falsifications only push the value of the original upwards. In a few rare known cases, they are estimated on their technical perfection, with an intrinsic value of their own.
November 18, 2017, 11:49:25 AM
so jbreher is censored but ruphej is allowed to post less than zero value annoyances every other post...makes total sense
If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
If the small block argument is so weak that it can't withstand some erudite scrutiny perhaps I need to look elsewhere for the truth.
November 18, 2017, 11:44:29 AM
Nobody is for censorship, but if you think you can have "discussion" with jbreher you are welcome to try it yourself. He just spams nonsense based on pulling what is being said out of context. That's reflected in his style of writing where he randomly quotes dozen of posts, and then using that to avoid any reasonable argument. If that kind of "discussion" is forced elsewhere it is not a loss, it's a gain IMHO.
+1 for moderators.
+1 for moderators.
You can be your own moderator using the ignore button.
Bitcoin is whatever the consensus mechanism decides it is. That was the original idea and one of the foundational pillars of what makes bitcoin as an idea able to function at all, and the result is in. Continuing to complain about it, and even going to far as to split the blockchain in two, is nothing short of an attempt to undermine bitcoin as a whole. They are enemies, not only of the personal wealth of many of us here, but far more importantly they are enemies of a lifeboat for countless millions of people when the economy collapses. They are, in a word, evil, right down to their core.
November 18, 2017, 11:40:34 AM
So I was at a happy hour and a couple of colleagues brought up the subject of Bitcoin out of the blue. It was all I could do to bite my tongue, none of them know I own any bitcoin and never will.
So one of them brings up the old, tired Peter Schiff argument of "Well at least Gold has intrinsic value. You can make jewelry out of it. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value."
So I look at him and casually say, "So you can make jewelry out of gold. Fair enough. So what then, gives jewelry value?"
That look on his face when his brain seemed to completely lock up for about a minute was priceless.
And then when his brain started processing again, of course comes the requisite reply, "Um, what do you mean? Because jewelry...has gold in it?"
People simply don't understand the philosophical basis for human's valuing anything. Everything is just taken for granted.
So one of them brings up the old, tired Peter Schiff argument of "Well at least Gold has intrinsic value. You can make jewelry out of it. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value."
So I look at him and casually say, "So you can make jewelry out of gold. Fair enough. So what then, gives jewelry value?"
That look on his face when his brain seemed to completely lock up for about a minute was priceless.
And then when his brain started processing again, of course comes the requisite reply, "Um, what do you mean? Because jewelry...has gold in it?"
People simply don't understand the philosophical basis for human's valuing anything. Everything is just taken for granted.
For the same purpose I use as example a Picasso's painting. It's just some dry paint on a board, total value $30, but it's worth millions. I like it because beside its price the number of picassos's painting is limited exactly like bitcoins, and the total capitalizations are alike.
You should have picked a less prolific painter for your analogy than Picasso. Once his painting became a cash cow for him, the quality of his work really went downhill.
November 18, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
Nobody is for censorship, but if you think you can have "discussion" with jbreher you are welcome to try it yourself. He just spams nonsense based on pulling what is being said out of context. That's reflected in his style of writing where he randomly quotes dozen of posts, and then using that to avoid any reasonable argument. If that kind of "discussion" is forced elsewhere it is not a loss, it's a gain IMHO.
+1 for moderators.
+1 for moderators.
You can be your own moderator using the ignore button.
For the same purpose I use as example a Picasso's painting. It's just some dry paint on a board, total value $30, but it's worth millions. I like it because beside its price the number of picassos's painting is limited exactly like bitcoins, and the total capitalizations are alike.
I can make a digital copy of the Picasso painting and call it Picasso Cash. I even print the piece on an 8 times larger piece of canvas. This certainly reduces the value of the legacy Picasso painting to zero and makes me the true Picasso.
November 18, 2017, 11:30:37 AM
So I was at a happy hour and a couple of colleagues brought up the subject of Bitcoin out of the blue. It was all I could do to bite my tongue, none of them know I own any bitcoin and never will.
So one of them brings up the old, tired Peter Schiff argument of "Well at least Gold has intrinsic value. You can make jewelry out of it. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value."
So I look at him and casually say, "So you can make jewelry out of gold. Fair enough. So what then, gives jewelry value?"
That look on his face when his brain seemed to completely lock up for about a minute was priceless.
And then when his brain started processing again, of course comes the requisite reply, "Um, what do you mean? Because jewelry...has gold in it?"
People simply don't understand the philosophical basis for human's valuing anything. Everything is just taken for granted.
So one of them brings up the old, tired Peter Schiff argument of "Well at least Gold has intrinsic value. You can make jewelry out of it. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value."
So I look at him and casually say, "So you can make jewelry out of gold. Fair enough. So what then, gives jewelry value?"
That look on his face when his brain seemed to completely lock up for about a minute was priceless.
And then when his brain started processing again, of course comes the requisite reply, "Um, what do you mean? Because jewelry...has gold in it?"
People simply don't understand the philosophical basis for human's valuing anything. Everything is just taken for granted.
For the same purpose I use as example Picasso's paintings. It's just some dry paint on a board, total value $30, but it's worth millions. I like it because beside its price the number of picassos's paintings is limited exactly like bitcoins, and the total capitalizations are alike.
November 18, 2017, 11:24:55 AM
Strange pattern this weekend: lots of shilling by newbies or outright new accounts, but without the serious pump&dump action we are accustomed to. Someone out of sync possibly?
On a related note, censoring jbreher's posts was less than wise IMO. He's still an apostate living out of the Grace of Bitcoin, but some of the points he makes contain enough thought to deserve discussion (and civilized flaming, including the occasional f'off).
On a related note, censoring jbreher's posts was less than wise IMO. He's still an apostate living out of the Grace of Bitcoin, but some of the points he makes contain enough thought to deserve discussion (and civilized flaming, including the occasional f'off).
Good point.
Echo chambers are useful in a recording studio.
Though I myself would prefer this place not turn into one.
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