Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 15942.

jojo69

legendary

Activity: 3374

Merit: 4738

diamond-handed zealot

Quote from: JayJuanGee on November 08, 2017, 06:55:34 PM

You are too nice.... Roll Eyes

Perhaps, but I think it is important now to take the high road and build a path forward with as broad a consensus as possible. While actual evil actors may have been at work in this drama, many in the other camp do, in fact, have genuine concerns and believe that they are acting in the best interests of Bitcoin. I may disagree with them on how we get there, or even on where "there" is, but these people are not the evil ones.

Bitcoin will find it's real enemies, let us not make them out of our friends.

gentlemand

legendary

Activity: 2590

Merit: 3015

Welt Am Draht

There's no point in talking about Lightning Networks until we get some actual ones to play with. Until then it's completely pointless conjecture. Ain't no one who knows what they're going to be yet.

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 06:19:01 PM

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 08, 2017, 06:07:47 PM

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments. These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?

Very tough question for me, how shabby? On the face of it sounds quite cool. But deep down I remain very suspicious of lightning network which stems from my distrust of banks. It feels like a banking layer being plonked down on top of bitcoin with the aim of bypassing hard money constraints that having transactions logged on a blockchain imposses. I have immense dislike of banking system which is what led me to bitcoin in the first place. "Be your own bank" At least having bitcoin as a settlement layer is a constraint of some form. It could be that the system if it does go that way will be a bit like an updated gold standard system whereas gold used to be the settlement layer now it will be bitcoin.

JayJuanGee

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 11299

Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"

Quote from: jojo69 on November 08, 2017, 12:52:23 PM

We can celebrate, but let's not gloat guys.

I, for one, praise the S2X camp for achieving the internal consensus to pull back from the brink.

We will eventually, in a safe and orderly manner, address their concerns regarding scaling.

In the end, they behaved like rational adults. Perhaps we can have nice things.

You are too nice.... Roll Eyes

Giving too much credit to confirmed terrorists. Tongue

itod

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1077

Honey badger just does not care

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 06:34:26 PM

I have a question, related to the bitcoin incentive system. What will happen in the long term, when the reward for each block decreases, and a large part of the transactions are made out of the chain?

It will not matter what will happen, the "root" of the value will always be a chain. if they want to raise the value of business they do off-chain they will always have to raise the value of the chain first.

Gab0

full member

Activity: 283

Merit: 127

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 06:19:01 PM

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 08, 2017, 06:07:47 PM

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments. These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?

I appreciate your answers. It sounds very interesting, but still highly speculative.
I have a question, related to the bitcoin incentive system. What will happen in the long term, when the reward for each block decreases, and a large part of the transactions are made out of the chain?

d_eddie

legendary

Activity: 2520

Merit: 3038

Quote from: Rosewater Foundation on November 08, 2017, 06:25:21 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 06:22:53 PM

Quote from: Rosewater Foundation on November 08, 2017, 06:21:21 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy

Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.

No I just don't get it. Isn't there a law about using fiat for shopping, because it's basically disintegrating anyway? Gresham or Hanlon or Newton...there's a law.

The "bad money pushes good money out of circulation" law? That's Gresham's.
But - admitting you wish to use BTC for coffee or whatever - it will be your LN client that manages the Tor connection, figures out a route to the recipient, and initiates the transaction. You don't have to actually set up any Tor node.

Rosewater Foundation

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 254

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 06:22:53 PM

Quote from: Rosewater Foundation on November 08, 2017, 06:21:21 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy

Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.

No I just don't get it. Isn't there a law about using fiat for shopping, because it's basically disintegrating anyway? Gresham or Hanlon or Newton...there's a law.
Sorry, I'll butt out.

d_eddie

legendary

Activity: 2520

Merit: 3038

Quote from: Rosewater Foundation on November 08, 2017, 06:21:21 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy

Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.

Rosewater Foundation

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 254

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy

d_eddie

legendary

Activity: 2520

Merit: 3038

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 08, 2017, 06:07:47 PM

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments. These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments. These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Rosewater Foundation

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 254

ok well... Tongue

itod

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1077

Honey badger just does not care

Quote from: Rosewater Foundation on November 08, 2017, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

LN is a toy. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit about buying gewgaws from bloody Amazon?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476196/number-of-active-amazon-customer-accounts-quarter/

Rosewater Foundation

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 254

Quote from: bitebits on November 08, 2017, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: d_eddie on November 08, 2017, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Gab0 on November 08, 2017, 03:51:19 PM

I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has... ...)))) with Starbucks. Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

LN is a toy. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit about buying gewgaws from bloody Amazon?

har23

sr. member

Activity: 310

Merit: 250