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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 19265. (Read 26607119 times)

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
i have a dream! i dream of large corporations/governments competing for blocks with 100,000's of 0.00001BTC fees


I have a dream where a bitcoin is worth $400,000 each three halvings from now so the blockreward is over a million bucks and miners still won't care about fees.  

If BTC value doubles more frequently than the blockreward halves, fees will never be needed to sustain miners.

awesome, peter todd can use reasoning to get poeple believing we don't actually need to grow the amount of fees generated on each block.
wait that might conflict with his idea that, the best way to get more fees is to artificially cap number TX pre block so fee rise.


this is a classic eco. problem, it's like "what is the best price for my product"

to expensive and no one will buy
to cheep and EVERYONE buys, but then your losing profit ( you could have been selling more expensive)

turns out the best price is one that a small % feel is to expensive.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
i have a dream! i dream of large corporations/governments competing for blocks with 100,000's of 0.00001BTC fees


I have a dream where a bitcoin is worth $400,000 each three halvings from now so the blockreward is over a million bucks and miners still won't care about fees.  

If BTC value doubles more frequently than the blockreward halves, fees will never be needed to sustain miners. Of course BTC can't grow exponentially in purchasing power forever, but it can in nominal terms if the U.S. Dollar ever hyperinflates.

legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
i have a dream! i dream of large corporations/governments competing for blocks with 100,000's of 0.00001BTC fees
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Ok. I'm flip flopping again. Hold please.

The immaterial incentive is what keeps getting to me. It seems too abstract to be an incentive. Like a tragedy of the commons thing.

Do not get me wrong. I am a die hard capitalist :-) Actually, i am following the self-interested altruism thought school. Which bitcoin shoots perfectly. I do not run nodes because i am "nice". I run it because i have a vested interest in the network's success and survival, for my own selfish goals. And what Adam said, there would be alas 5000 more who would do the same in hours if they would feel their money is in trouble.

That is why, in the future, if we expand this beautiful network to 100millions, 10 and 10 thousands of corporations will run a node, more than today. But, first we need to get there, by let in 100x more economic value/block happening on the blockchain. I hope you understand.

I think so. SegWit. 2MB. Moon?
sr. member
Activity: 401
Merit: 280
Ok. I'm flip flopping again. Hold please.

The immaterial incentive is what keeps getting to me. It seems too abstract to be an incentive. Like a tragedy of the commons thing.

Do not get me wrong. I am a die hard capitalist :-) Actually, i am following the self-interested altruism thought school. Which bitcoin shoots perfectly. I do not run nodes because i am "nice". I run it because i have a vested interest in the network's success and survival, for my own selfish goals. And what Adam said, there would be alas 5000 more who would do the same in hours if they would feel their money is in trouble.

That is why, in the future, if we expand this beautiful network to 100millions, 10 and 10 thousands of corporations will run a node, more than today. But, first we need to get there, by let in 100x more economic value/block happening on the blockchain. I hope you understand.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
Random thought: What if Satoshi left because he lost his private keys and it's just too painful for him to think about?
sr. member
Activity: 401
Merit: 280
Also, i have never ever seen a scientific, measurable, technical, economical, psychological research/prognosis with hard data and testing about what a limit increase would ACTUALLY do to decentralization - i bet all the miner pools and their thousands of contributors would still run a node, the node hardware can not possibly be more expensive than 0,01% of the mining costs...

As a scientist i am basically agnostic in the matter, but i see no real life data showing doom is coming with greater (much greater than 2MB in the long run) blocks.

But, i see - and everyone with common sense - the math, that not increasing in several magnitudes in blocksize in the future is mathematically//physically hindering the growing of the network before we hit that sweetspot of "global network effect".
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.

I think I disagree with this. Bitcoin is an incentives machine. Nobody should be expected to do anything on principle.

Right now the biggest reason to run a new node is to vote. If we reject as a matter of principle that a contended hard fork should ever take place, then that incentive is gone and so is the negotiating power we have with core. If you support Core, run a core node. If you support Classic, run a Classic node. This way nodecount will grow and they will all validate the same transactions until after a supermajority is reached and then a graceperiod.

No node, no vote. That is incentive enough, no matter which implementation you like. SwampNode cost me $137 bucks. 
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Ok. I'm flip flopping again. Hold please.

The immaterial incentive is what keeps getting to me. It seems too abstract to be an incentive. Like a tragedy of the commons thing.
sr. member
Activity: 401
Merit: 280
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.

I think I disagree with this. Bitcoin is an incentives machine. Nobody should be expected to do anything on principle.



there is a huge incentive

imagine tomorrow you wake up and the news is there are only 100nodes up on the network and altho you dont understand everything your read you get that this is NOT GOOD

what do you do next?

thats right you ( and the first 5000 others to read the news ) make a free AWS account and fire up a Bitcoin Node.

basically all reasons for not bumping the limit is pure speculation, terrible speculation.

Thank You, i am trying to explain this for months, you worded it perfectly! Technical mumbo-jumbo limits << my incentive to not lose all my BTC value Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 401
Merit: 280
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.

I think I disagree with this. Bitcoin is an incentives machine. Nobody should be expected to do anything on principle.



Yes, and no Smiley

Yes, it is an incentives machine for the 99,8%. Hence they do not run nodes, there is no incentive (material) to run one, unless they have serious investments (lots of BTCs), so a healthy network is in their best interest - or we run it on principle, even if it is in the negative. That is why i say, that if we reach even 1% of global financial volume, thousands of merchants, corporations, server farms, miner conglomerates will run nodes, just to be able to check those 10k payments/minute coming from the global customer base, since they CAN, and can not, or want to rely on 3rd parties  -that is the whole point!

That is the exact reason i laugh at smallblockers: they still pretend that a global financial computer network should and can be done by average Joes who can barely install apps safely to their mobile phones.

In the future -just as Satoshi said - it will either be server farm, corporations, merchants, universities, economics research institutes, wealthy individuals who are going to run nodes, or none of us ("there will be either huge transaction volume, or none").
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.

I think I disagree with this. Bitcoin is an incentives machine. Nobody should be expected to do anything on principle.



there is a huge incentive

imagine tomorrow you wake up and the news is there are only 100nodes up on the network and altho you dont understand everything your read you get that this is NOT GOOD

what do you do next?

thats right you ( and the first 5000 others to read the news ) make a free AWS account and fire up a Bitcoin Node.

basically all reasons for not bumping the limit is pure speculation, terrible speculation.
cr7
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 100
We really need to go up again, I'm tired with marijuana and 420 jokes.

Last time things started to rise in the weekend, will it repeat?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.

I think I disagree with this. Bitcoin is an incentives machine. Nobody should be expected to do anything on principle.

sr. member
Activity: 401
Merit: 280
It is fascinating, that anyone seriously thinking we are going to stay at 1/2/4 etc MB blockchain size.

The arguments fearing node centralization are laughable (like everyone back in 2010 - incl. Satoshi - knew). Bitcoin has like minimum a million users with PCs capable to run a node today, yet, less than 1% choose to run a node (the numbers may be waaay worse than that, like 5k "node runners" out of 5million users/holders).

Increasing the blocksize, lets say to 20 MB won't matter regarding the broadcast speed, mempool load, HDD space for the average user to run/not run a node - because they do not do it today, not even with 1MB/ avg. 10 min. They won't change a thing.

Today, if someone runs a node (or more than one) would do it even with 20 MB limits (many would do with way more hardware constrains, would even pay for it - like i do - just out of principle).
It is not technical properties, which are constrain node running, it is knowledge/care.

Does anyone with "smalblock" sentiment really thinks Bitcoin can growth even to 1% of today's financial network transaction volume without scaling the blockchain size to terrabytes in the next 5 years?

"The Blockchain" can bring so much utility besides money transactions! And that is exactly what it needs to be - and what most of us were fascinated about, land/property registry, ownership titles, escrow in an uncheatable global ledger, so no, not a settlement layer. "IT IS ON THE BLOCKCHAIN" should be a proverb for "as final as set in stone"- in the 10/100k$ area, because the account units can do more than coffee buys, yet, those daily 100,000 "coffee buys" will be the big thing to bring the first 1 billionth user. The average Joes, who so many look down here, yet, they are 95% of the population. Bitcoin needs them, we can not have a global financial system without the global....

I can not grasp, how experienced - and certainly well meaning, and i am saying this honestly and respectuflly - bitcoiners miss this point, which is: if blockchain can satisfy more than pure value transaction in its p2p concept, it will magnify in value/unit wise, which is all what WE want.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
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