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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 19534. (Read 26609885 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
...
There won't be a "congestion failure". If blocks are full a order of importance builds itself, those TXs that are more important are paying more and those that are not important are paying less/nothing. You dont have to agree with this fee market evolving and its perfectly fine to be in the bigblockers-camp, but this "congestion failure" is just bullshit cause it paints a situation that will never occur.

So... Each time I transact via Bitcoin, I make a wager (that the tx fee I paid is sufficient to have my transaction included)?
Sort of like a blind auction?
On that like white on rice, the wackier & more probabilistic my money is, the better Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Bitcoin was interesting when it was an experiment, when it ran. It’s crawling now, crawling toward instability.

http://www.coindesk.com/is-bitcoin-for-the-masses-or-against-the-state/

Even the cheap rags are onto us.  Cry
ImI
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1019
The answer to your question of attacking one of the chains seems to be valid, still.

I don't think so...

When a fork is proposed, like XT or Classic (with 75% trigger and a few weeks of grace period between the trigger and the switch to new rules), I think that:

* Before the fork, holders should pray that it resolves neatly and quickly as a non-event, and keep quiet or voice their preferences quietly, so that it does not upset the price;

* If the proposal gains some support, but neither reaches 75% nor drops back to zero, and it looks like the impasse may continue for a while, they may want to speak out for one outcome, to help break the impasse -- but that may make things worse if they themselves cant agree on which side to support.   They may want to sell while the price is still OK, justin case; but that may cause the price to crash.  Or they may choose to bet on the price recovering later, and keep holding.

* If the proposal gets little suport and seems to be a sure fail, the holders shoul shout it down.

* If the proposal gets 51% and keeps increasing, the holders should cheer it along.

* If the proposal gets the required support and triggers, the holders should upgrade their clients accept it, and do what they can to convince the remaining miners and players to accept it too.

* If the change has triggered, but at the end of the grace period there is still a non-negligible fraction of the miners that refuse to accep it, then the holders should try to convince the exchanges and other services to boycott the minority chain and refuse its coins, and convince the miners to sabotage the minority chain.

When a minority can veto, we have what amounts to a game of "chicken". In the game of chicken, the side perceived to be the craziest and most hell-bent on winning at any cost (including their own destruction) is the side that wins.  This right now is the side of the smallblockers, unfortunately.  That's why I think this will take a while to play out, longer in fact than it will take to fill the blocks and hike fees. Possibly long enough to get a network congestion failure. 

There won't be a "congestion failure". If blocks are full a order of importance builds itself, those TXs that are more important are paying more and those that are not important are paying less/nothing. You dont have to agree with this fee market evolving and its perfectly fine to be in the bigblockers-camp, but this "congestion failure" is just bullshit cause it paints a situation that will never occur.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000

Someone like Wences or Keiser should waste a few thousand with paid for media blowing the lid off the fact that Mike Hearn was not an actual core dev.  It would probably really fuck Hearn over and make him wish he never wrote that blog post if it appears that he was misrepresenting who he actually was.  He's not a complete idiot, but his authority figure status over Bitcoin is more similar to some random guy like Peter R than Satoshi.  The articles all pretend like he was running the show.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
riddle me this, cripplecoiners:

1. How do you grow network effects without scaling?
2. How do you attract new users by increasing fees and slowing service?
3. How do you reduce friction by increasing complexity?
4. How can you call a network dominated by a handful of miners in a totalitarian state decentralized?

Do you think code developers have or should have any accountability to the people who actually use their software?  If it's open source, shouldn't we have the right to modify it in any way we see fit?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Another average day in Bitcoin.  

China FOMO short squeeze sucker's rally designed solely to margin call MatTheCat then immediately dump after while forum discusses fullblockalypse vs barackalypse.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
The answer to your question of attacking one of the chains seems to be valid, still.

I don't think so...

When a fork is proposed, like XT or Classic (with 75% trigger and a few weeks of grace period between the trigger and the switch to new rules), I think that:

* Before the fork, holders should pray that it resolves neatly and quickly as a non-event, and keep quiet or voice their preferences quietly, so that it does not upset the price;

* If the proposal gains some support, but neither reaches 75% nor drops back to zero, and it looks like the impasse may continue for a while, they may want to speak out for one outcome, to help break the impasse -- but that may make things worse if they themselves cant agree on which side to support.   They may want to sell while the price is still OK, justin case; but that may cause the price to crash.  Or they may choose to bet on the price recovering later, and keep holding.

* If the proposal gets little suport and seems to be a sure fail, the holders shoul shout it down.

* If the proposal gets 51% and keeps increasing, the holders should cheer it along.

* If the proposal gets the required support and triggers, the holders should upgrade their clients accept it, and do what they can to convince the remaining miners and players to accept it too.

* If the change has triggered, but at the end of the grace period there is still a non-negligible fraction of the miners that refuse to accep it, then the holders should try to convince the exchanges and other services to boycott the minority chain and refuse its coins, and convince the miners to sabotage the minority chain.

When a minority can veto, we have what amounts to a game of "chicken". In the game of chicken, the side perceived to be the craziest and most hell-bent on winning at any cost (including their own destruction) is the side that wins.  This right now is the side of the smallblockers, unfortunately.  That's why I think this will take a while to play out, longer in fact than it will take to fill the blocks and hike fees. Possibly long enough to get a network congestion failure. 
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
The answer to your question of attacking one of the chains seems to be valid, still.

I don't think so...

When a fork is proposed, like XT or Classic (with 75% trigger and a few weeks of grace period between the trigger and the switch to new rules), I think that:

* Before the fork, holders should pray that it resolves neatly and quickly as a non-event, and keep quiet or voice their preferences quietly, so that it does not upset the price;

* If the proposal gains some support, but neither reaches 75% nor drops back to zero, and it looks like the impasse may continue for a while, they may want to speak out for one outcome, to help break the impasse -- but that may make things worse if they themselves cant agree on which side to support.   They may want to sell while the price is still OK, justin case; but that may cause the price to crash.  Or they may choose to bet on the price recovering later, and keep holding.

* If the proposal gets little suport and seems to be a sure fail, the holders shoul shout it down.

* If the proposal gets 51% and keeps increasing, the holders should cheer it along.

* If the proposal gets the required support and triggers, the holders should upgrade their clients accept it, and do what they can to convince the remaining miners and players to accept it too.

* If the change has triggered, but at the end of the grace period there is still a non-negligible fraction of the miners that refuse to accep it, then the holders should try to convince the exchanges and other services to boycott the minority chain and refuse its coins, and convince the miners to sabotage the minority chain.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

*Which isn't to say "anarchy" is a useless word. It's useful in its colloquial, everyday sense:
an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

    a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
    "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"

The big problem with anarchy is that many of its types are inconsistent and amount to "I should be free to tell others what to do". As such, you are correct that it is mainly of use only colloquially.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
I'm a fan of Murray Rothbard, but I don't like the term "anarcho-capitalist" that he coined, because, although it is technically accurate, it is misleading to laymen.  Rothbard was an anarchist in the sense that he believed in "no rulers", but he absolutely believed in order and thought the central State was ultimately an agent of disorder and I agree with him.

I prefer to use the term "distributed governance".  Hierarchies are found throughout nature and I think it is contrary to human nature and therefor impossible to eliminate them entirely. But I still think Political power should be reduced as much as possible and reducing the amount of pooled resources to squabble over is a step in that direction. 

We can also dramatically reduce violence if it becomes taboo to ever initiate it, meaning defensive force is the only kind with any social sanction. The problem arises that there are differing views on what exactly constitutes "initiatory violence." This is because there are differing views on how threatening speech has to be before it constitutes an actual threat and because defense of property depends on the definition of rightful property.  Still, I think these problems are solvable after a few generations of children raised without corporal punishment grow up.

legendary
Activity: 1066
Merit: 1098
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.

To an extent. Most human language words are ambiguous.
"Socialism" is loosely defined as "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."
That's a big thing to have in common, and makes it a useful word.
Anarchism is hard to pin down like that, it doesn't have that "necessary and sufficient" component defining it. Not to say it can't be misused, like someone calling their party "Capitososialist." But "Socialism" works fine in "Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats."
See what I mean?

The point is simply that if you choose to use imprecise terminology, you should not be surprised if your meaning is ambiguously interpreted.  It's not a unique quality of 'anarchy'.

It's a question of degree. The problem with "Anarchy" is it has become a meaningless term (outside of its colloquial usage, as in "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy").
When you say "I'm an Anarchist," I don't know what you're trying to say. Think of it like X in the formula Y=Z+X-X. I can eliminate it, and the formula stays the same. It add nothing.
It's the same with "Anarchist."
After calling yourself an Anarchist, you still have to go through exactly the same list of explanations if the word "Anarchy" didn't exist.
See what I'm trying to say?

Yeah, that's true enough.

So many socio-political terms have become genericized to the point of meaninglessness.  In America, it's amazing how almost any political term you use will end up being interpreted by your listener as either 'Democrat' or 'Republican', i.e. left-wing = liberal = Democrat, right-wing = conservative = Republican.

Kind of sad really, because all of those words have distinct, useful meanings of their own.

No use in complaining about it though - all you can do is try to take that into account, and speak (or write) more precisely.

There's no way around the ultimate semiotic dilemma, though, that when I present a symbol to you to convey meaning, the meaning you get will come from you, not from me.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.

To an extent. Most human language words are ambiguous.
"Socialism" is loosely defined as "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."
That's a big thing to have in common, and makes it a useful word.
Anarchism is hard to pin down like that, it doesn't have that "necessary and sufficient" component defining it. Not to say it can't be misused, like someone calling their party "Capitososialist." But "Socialism" works fine in "Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats."
See what I mean?

The point is simply that if you choose to use imprecise terminology, you should not be surprised if your meaning is ambiguously interpreted.  It's not a unique quality of 'anarchy'.

It's a question of degree. The problem with "Anarchy" is it has become a meaningless term (outside of its colloquial usage, as in "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy").
When you say "I'm an Anarchist," I don't know what you're trying to say. Think of it like X in the formula Y=Z+X-X. I can eliminate it, and the formula stays the same. It add nothing.
It's the same with "Anarchist."
After calling yourself an Anarchist, you still have to go through exactly the same list of explanations if the word "Anarchy" didn't exist.
See what I'm trying to say?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1066
Merit: 1098
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.

To an extent. Most human language words are ambiguous.
"Socialism" is loosely defined as "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."
That's a big thing to have in common, and makes it a useful word.
Anarchism is hard to pin down like that, it doesn't have that "necessary and sufficient" component defining it. Not to say it can't be misused, like someone calling their party "Capitososialist." But "Socialism" works fine in "Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats."
See what I mean?

The point is simply that if you choose to use imprecise terminology, you should not be surprised if your meaning is ambiguously interpreted.  It's not a unique quality of 'anarchy'.

legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.



No, it can't.

Stop spreading stoopid.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.

To an extent. Most human language words are ambiguous.
"Socialism" is loosely defined as "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."
That's a big thing to have in common, and makes it a useful word.
Anarchism is hard to pin down like that, it doesn't have that "necessary and sufficient" component defining it. Not to say it can't be misused, like someone calling their party "Capitososialist." But "Socialism" works fine in "Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats."
See what I mean?

*Which isn't to say "anarchy" is a useless word. It's useful in its colloquial, everyday sense:
an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun
noun: anarchy

    a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
    "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
sr. member
Activity: 258
Merit: 250

I know that it is difficult to understand why democracy is "the worst system of government, excluding all the others".  It takes the ability to think socially: "Whatever I can think, do, want, or get, others can think, do, want, or get too".

Libertarians and anarchists are notoriously unable to think that way.  So, when they conclude that the choices of a minority should prevail over those of the majority, they always assume implicitly that it will be their minority, not some other minority.

You don't understand us at all, Prof. The Core devs aren't anarchists. It's early adopters like me who are. Libertarians and anarcho-capitalists most commonly are Natural Rights advocates and not utilitarians, so you can be forgiven for misunderstanding us, but if you really dive into the philosophy and economics of it, you'll find that most of us are on the other side in this conflict.

Deomocracy, in the sense of one person one vote for control over pooled resources, is inefficient because there is no way to communicate the intensity of one's preferences. That is one objection. The main objection is that we don't believe you can delegate your right to a government if you don't have that right in the first place, so for example, if you don't have the right to take by force from your neighbor because you need his property more than he does, then you don't have that right even if the majority of voters decide that you do.

No, in political and economic issues, we are basically saying it's got to be win-win or no deal. Zero-sum game theory is relevant only in that we seek to reduce as much as possible the cases in which it applies.

In the present conflict, here is how I see it: Miners have every right to run whichever version they choose. Developers have every right to contribute to whatever version of the client they wish.  investors and speculators have every right to buy or sell as much as they want.  Everyone has a right to run or not run any node they like. 

I would like Core/Blockstream to get on board with a blocksize increase, but I don't think that's going to happen unless circumstances change significantly and they may never get on board. That's their right. I will support any proposed scaling solution that looks like it has a reasonable chance of success, but I don't think Core or the miners that support them will change positions without a major loss in market cap. This puts me in a weird position:

If the market stays up or goes higher, I sell. If the market goes lower, I hold, because it means we are more likely to get a scaling solution one way or another.  The market is more democratic than democracy. I can vote with my wallet. So can you. So can anybody.

In my opinion, a higher price will attract new users and bring on the very network congestion the transaction fees are supposed to overcome. There will be a period in which low value transactions will diminish due to loss of economic viability and be replaced by higher value transaction, but eventually all growth will plateau and stop.

I don't know if this issue will EVER be resolved, and that will be a tragedy, but this will play out in the market, as it should. Either Bitcoin will scale or another coin that is found to be more useful by the market will.  Core has no more power than the market gives them. Miners have no more power than traders/investors/speculators give them.  If we reward them for doing something stupid, it's our fault when they do it.







http://pastebin.com/B8YQr5TQ


Hey Jorge, I was wondering if you have time and could possibly comment later about the exchange between JToomin and Guy Corem?
It's a long read but it lays out the history post hk scaling convention and recent development of classic.
It then goes on to discuss post classic activation.

Advanced Warning, It's a long read... But super informative and IMHO provides a good understanding of the competing interests and goals...
legendary
Activity: 1066
Merit: 1098
Unfortunately, when there are so many interpretations of the term "Anarchy"

Isn't that true of any generic socio-political term?

'Socialism' can mean anything from Nazis to Communists to European social Democrats.

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