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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 19774. (Read 26619992 times)

sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

full member
Activity: 756
Merit: 100

what if I just accedently make an account on an exchange and accidentally press the buy and sell button

I don't understand your question I'm afraid  Grin
You'll buy something then sell it immediately, paying the broker fee and the market gap and the tax. Bu I'm not to sure about why you would do this ^^
full member
Activity: 756
Merit: 100
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?
They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.

No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life.

The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more.
What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.
If you want to have an ethical argument about how trading is immoral and should be abolished, that is another matter is probably your strongest approach.

As for the economic impact, it will be negative. I have read reports. The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off.

You missed what I said about securities based borrowing. You can invest and trade at the same time by using the investment as lending collateral for the trading. You still have a long term investment, which goes untouched (unless you have losses)
what if I just accedently make an account on an exchange and accidentally press the buy and sell button
full member
Activity: 756
Merit: 100
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?
They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.
legendary
Activity: 1133
Merit: 1163
Imposition of ORder = Escalation of Chaos
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Hint... it's called price discovery, and it's occasionally useful.

Would you rather they used your money to figure it out? That can be arranged.
legendary
Activity: 981
Merit: 1005
No maps for these territories
Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways
full member
Activity: 756
Merit: 100
If you want to have an ethical argument about how trading is immoral and should be abolished, that is another matter is probably your strongest approach.

As for the economic impact, it will be negative. I have read reports. The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off.

You missed what I said about securities based borrowing. You can invest and trade at the same time by using the investment as lending collateral for the trading. You still have a long term investment, which goes untouched (unless you have losses)

I didn't miss. You're talking about maybe 0.01% of amount of trades. Yes it exists but who uses it? And it doesn't matter, it would be better to have ONLY investments).

And it will not be negative as, as I said, your just destroying an intermediate. You don't destroy any value, and the amount of money that was "won" in trading was also "lost" in trading (because for you to win 100$ in trading someone must have lost 100$ in trading.).

 The money will just go somewhere else. Suppressing companies that produce nothing and provide no services can't have a negative effect on economy, it's just not possible... Even if "The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off." the tax will be won somewhere else because the money spent on trading will be spent somewhere else...
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Gentlemen, I realize we've flat lined here, but please... my asks are quite reasonable, and they're not fake.

Edit: Filled, thank you. Took some of the edge off.
legendary
Activity: 1133
Merit: 1163
Imposition of ORder = Escalation of Chaos
what's with all the statist sentiment here?

Tax this
Regulate the rest
We are the central planners
We know what is best
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Things have changed 'round here.  Undecided
newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
Some choo choo for all the Bitcoiners (... and their kids  Wink

https://i.imgur.com/lpFxPgf.jpg

HAPPY HOLIDAY
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
@flagpara    
totally agree with you man
+1000

Thanks dude.
I trade sometimes, mainly because I have no faith neither in our society or our government so I don't really feel guilty about it. But it doesn't mean that I am not aware of the fact that when I earn 200$ profit on a trade, it means someone somewhere lost 200$ to. I'm just stealing (legally but still).
So if a government wants to regulate that and limit the profits of the REAL criminals of our time, well I can't say anything but yes. I'll earn less money, but that will be for the best. It's like the taxes, I don't like paying them, but that doesn't mean I can't understand that it's thanks to the taxes I currently pay that I was able to go to school!

PS. And I like your vision of Jesus  Grin
Nice one, guys, great to see some sanity on this forum for a change Smiley
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
If you want to have an ethical argument about how trading is immoral and should be abolished, that is another matter is probably your strongest approach.

As for the economic impact, it will be negative. I have read reports. The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off.

You missed what I said about securities based borrowing. You can invest and trade at the same time by using the investment as lending collateral for the trading. You still have a long term investment, which goes untouched (unless you have losses)
full member
Activity: 756
Merit: 100
@flagpara    
totally agree with you man
+1000

Thanks dude.
I trade sometimes, mainly because I have no faith neither in our society or our government so I don't really feel guilty about it. But it doesn't mean that I am not aware of the fact that when I earn 200$ profit on a trade, it means someone somewhere lost 200$ to. I'm just stealing (legally but still).
So if a government wants to regulate that and limit the profits of the REAL criminals of our time, well I can't say anything but yes. I'll earn less money, but that will be for the best. It's like the taxes, I don't like paying them, but that doesn't mean I can't understand that it's thanks to the taxes I currently pay that I was able to go to school!

PS. And I like your vision of Jesus  Grin
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