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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 20602. (Read 26607917 times)

legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
There are 3 type of people crying and screaming that crypto is dead...

a: the ones who already dump their coins
b: the ones who still think the current system is honest and good and defend it
c: trolls trying to lead other people to A and B so they can keep stealing with fiat ponzy

d: Alt coin holders who missed getting into Bitcoin early so they think that the extra 5 minutes they put into thinking of an "improvement" on Bitcoin will change the world (and just happen to make them rich as well).
legendary
Activity: 1554
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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


can't talk

must party

ccmf
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1366
Now we are talking. If 270$ would be support in 3 days we have brighter future.
legendary
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1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 569
Merit: 505
There are 3 type of people crying and screaming that crypto is dead...

a: the ones who already dump their coins
b: the ones who still think the current system is honest and good and defend it
c: trolls trying to lead other people to A and B so they can keep stealing with fiat ponzy

It's dangerous to know about c. Just telling you!
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
I am what I would consider a Bitcoin fanatic. Beyond the idealistic reasons that I choose to use Bitcoin, I have plenty to lose (financially) if Bitcoin drops in value (and plenty to gain if it increases in value). If I am concerned about my ability (as a Bitcoin fanatic) to run a full node with the current anti-spam (has spam been fixed by the way?) 1MB block size limit in place, what is going to happen when the data I need to share with my peers doubles (or increases 8-fold, wtf!)? When Bitcoin fanatics have doubts about running a full node, I would imagine that the robustness of the decentralized network has been harmed.

Yes, I am of the opinion that I absolutely must run a full node to take full advantage of Bitcoin.

The price of bitcoin has been, and still is, determined by the expectation of its demand being high in some future time.  

Until recently, that high future demand was supposed to come from its use as a currency for internet payments.  The current level of use (maybe 5 million USD/day, by optimistic estimates) is too low to produce that demand, by orders of magnitude.  To justify a price of 2500 USD/BTC (say) one would need 100 to 1000 times as much use.  

The current "normal" traffic T, ignoring the recent "stress tests", is about 120'000 tx/day, or about 0.45 MB/block on average; and has doubled in the last 12 months.  That is too close to the effective capacity C of the network, currently ~200'000 tx/day or ~0.80 MB/block. (C is not 1.00 MB/block because of the inevitable empty blocks).

Granted, much of that traffic is not payments (bitcoins changing hands in exchange for other goods and services).  Lots of it is gambling, wallet housekeeping, tumbling, notarizing, testing, and possibly fake traffic meant to give the illusion of increasing adoption.  How much of T is due to those "non-essential" uses?  Guesses vary; my own guess is 90% or more.

But even if 90% of T was "non-essential" and could be eliminated, to get to 2500 USD/BTC one would still need 10 to 100 times more traffic than there is today.  If running a full node is not viable for home users today, it will be quite impossible by then.  In other words, if the proper working of bitcoin depends on home users running full nodes, then bitcoin is not a viable competitor for PayPal or Apple Pay, much less for VISA.

Back to the present, the block size limit would not be such a pressing issue if that "non-essential" traffic were excluded.  IMHO, the best way to do that would be to set a significant fee and a significant minimum transaction value -- say, 0.001 BTC (~0.25 USD) per output.  That is how Charlie Lee solved the spam problem in Litecoin; but his suggestion to the Bitcoin devs to do the same fell on deaf ears.  (So much for the old claim that "Bitcoin will not be superseded by a better altcoin because it can itself incorporate any good features of the latter".)

By my guess, a significant fee and value threshold would reduce T to 1/10 of the present value.  It would also make stress tests and spam attacks much more expensive to the attacker, hence much less likely. (We still haven't seen a real spam attack, but it is estimated that an effective one could be sustained for a couple of days for maybe 100'000 USD/day, or less.)  Note that 0.25 USD/tx is still less than 10% of the per-transaction cost of mining.  On the other hand, it would not prevent the hoped-for 100x or 1000x increase in adoption that would be needed to drive the price up.

Unfortunately, raising the fee is politically impossible, for several reasons.  "No fees" has been a pillar of the "marketing" of bitcoin since the drive for general adoption started in 2013, and is still part of the discourse of important players like Coinbase and BitPay.  A fee raise would probably break gambling compaies like SatoshiDice, and several other companies that are politically powerful in "bitcoin space" (e.g. by sponsoring the "bitcoin media", events, and avertising in mainstream media.)  A large drop in T would also expose the fact that adoption for e-payments is not growing, and probably declining.

A large minimum fee has been opposed also on "ideological" grounds, because it would need some governing body to decide the proper value, and change it from time to time based on the current market price and the state of the economy.  Thus, the small-blockians claim that letting the "fee market" define the fees would be an "ideologically pure" solution.  But the 1 MB block size limit was not chosen for that purpose.  "Market" fees that result from an arbitrary block size limit would be just as arbitrary as fees set directly.  A governing body would still be needed to impose a block size limit, and revise it from time to time, to achieve the best fee and volume numbers.

So, what is the solution?  In my view, there is none; hence my signature.  As most of you know by now, I think that bitcoin should never have been marketed to the general public. It was started a technical experiment to test whether the protocol worked in practice, as it seemed to work in theory; and should have remained such.   The protocol mostly works, but the result is not a viable currency for several problems that were not foreseen.  Fixing those problems seems to require another couple of brilliant inventions, like the PoW blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 3556
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#1 VIP Crypto Casino
a six dollar pump? So what? It didn't even trigger my sell order. Why do you even care? What's these assholes like hdbuck even doing on a Wall Observer thread if they don't care about short and intermediate term prices as they claim?

Nothing to be excited about but I prefer seeing 6 dollar pumps to dumps. 6 dollar rise per bitcoin is a hell of a lot for people who own hundreds & hundreds of coins. People who mock a 6 dollar pump are probably people with very few coins or maybe none at all.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1005
4 Mana 7/7
Wooh we crossed the 270 mark once more, seems more stable than last time though.

It's only 270.1$ for some exchanges. I wouldn't call that "passed".
We crossed it now, slow and steady growth. Lets hope it crosses 280 as well.

Don't get greedy dude! Cheesy
I would like to see if we can hold the 270s range before climbing higher.
Nah not getting greedy, just stating my prediction and seems it is coming true: http://preev.com/btc/usd/source:bitfinex
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1016
Wooh we crossed the 270 mark once more, seems more stable than last time though.

It's only 270.1$ for some exchanges. I wouldn't call that "passed".
We crossed it now, slow and steady growth. Lets hope it crosses 280 as well.

Don't get greedy dude! Cheesy
I would like to see if we can hold the 270s range before climbing higher.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
a six dollar pump? So what? It didn't even trigger my sell order. Why do you even care? What's these assholes like hdbuck even doing on a Wall Observer thread if they don't care about short and intermediate term prices as they claim?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
@billyboy bitcoin is trust. You should redirect your juvenil crave for improvements towards Apple and Google. The new iPhone is out, maybe spend some of your few Bitcoins to buy one... Roll Eyes
full member
Activity: 172
Merit: 100
contracorriente
There are 3 type of people crying and screaming that crypto is dead...

a: the ones who already dump their coins
b: the ones who still think the current system is honest and good and defend it
c: trolls trying to lead other people to A and B so they can keep stealing with fiat ponzy
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1094
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women


lol gold? everybody knows it is being manipulated to sustain the petrodollardebt ponzi..

Then that means it is artificially underpriced and you should buy some. Buy enough to force a short squeeze. Oh, you don't have enough fiat to do that? Buy on credit. Not enough credit? Get your friends to help. Don't have enough friends? There you go.

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errr i dont even, sry but this gibberish nonsense completely lacks balance and my bullshitometer is ATH.

let coinbase bitpay et al. crash, surely some other MtGOX scandals will happen too.
but bitcoin does not need them, it is them who need bitcoin to scam the shit outta you.

or please as i said before, do flock to some other "blockchain technology"...

time is precious, trusting bitcoin implies you have plenty since it will never fade out as it is and will probably last longer than you.
banks otoh...

I trust Proof-of-work. I trust elliptical curve cryptography. I trust the economics of a finite currency. I don't trust assholes spewing bullshit about a technology that is better because it never improves.
legendary
Activity: 2380
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1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
sr. member
Activity: 770
Merit: 284
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
$275 hit on Bitstamp. Will it go for the $280?
legendary
Activity: 861
Merit: 1010
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Quote

"I know, I know" many people say you should just use it, get real! you don't walk around with a Gold Bar all the time, do you?

No, but have you seen the price of gold in the last few years? It's stagnant at best. Gold is rarely used as money because of high transaction fees.

lol gold? everybody knows it is being manipulated to sustain the petrodollardebt ponzi..


Quote
I dont oppose scaling.

Just in due time, with actual metrics, with proper researches and solutions that does not hamper the universality and inalienability of the network, not at the expense of decentralization and censorship resistance, not to hand bitcoin to big corps, whether it be payment processors or mining consortiums, etc etc... and no, i am certainly not craving some "governance" besides bitcoin's own rule, which are meant to be HARD, if not impossible to change.

So how fucking long is "due time"?  You've had YEARS to address this problem, knowing it was coming.  You don't think a TWO YEAR bear market has anything to do with the obstinacy of you and your ilk?
If you choke out the payment processors, you choke out yourself. Censorship resistance is limited by limiting the on and off ramps. If you make Bitcoin only useful for criminals, you will bring the entire weight of the establishment down on us.
Bitcoin is open source. Anyone can copy and modify the code. The ONLY thing that prevents our bankster competition from eating our lunch is our first mover advantage. They have near infinite resources to bring to bear. Coinbase, Circle, Bitpay, etc can switch crytocoins at the snap of the fingers. If we lose momentum, it's game over. Game fucking over, Man.  
There can be only one reserve currency. There can be only one most marketable commodity. The whole point of money is to eliminate the need for a double coincidence of wants when we barter.
Your time is fucking running out, so get on the goddamn stick, you slow ass-dragging motherfuckers. You won't know it's too late until it's too late.


errr i dont even, sry but this gibberish nonsense completely lacks balance and my bullshitometer is ATH.

let coinbase bitpay et al. crash with their copypaste of a fraudulent business and their regulations, surely some other MtGOX scandals will happen too.
but bitcoin does not need them, it is them who need bitcoin to scam the shit outta you.

or please as i said before, do flock to some other "blockchain technology"... leaving will allow other people in, pushing scaling issues even further down the road. Grin Wink

time is precious, hoarding bitcoin implies you have plenty since by doing so you trust it will never fade out as it is and will probably last longer than you.
banks otoh...

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