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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 20857. (Read 26608322 times)

hero member
Activity: 748
Merit: 500
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. Forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin


cant wait for gavin and hearn to be muted tho.

the sooner they fork off the better for bitcoin and its price.

I think you are wrong...Gavin was chosen by Satoshi and the mistake Gavin did in my opinion is that he was too kind and let github access to 4 other people, who turned against him and Adam from Blockstream even proposed revoking his commit access, which i think is pretty sneaky under the belt move...and if you want to follow this guy, go ahead, from your post history i would bet you will not like sane and kind people anyway
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
bitfinex longs are climbing real good now .. we're not messing around anymore.. nothing can stop us now!
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

No, it proves that Bitcoin will not be replaced by BitcoinXT.  Anything else is overgeneralization.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002

Many people mocked me many pages ago for my concern that the block size could not simply scale exponentially for the next 20 years, but I still believe we are reaching the limits of physics and any further significant exponential type gains in computing power beyond asic will likely take us beyond the singularity. I just hope our new synthetic overlords accept bitcoin. (Ok, yes, I've been watching too much humans (tv show))

Block size MUST scale exponentially whether it's simple or not. A crypto with a block size limit is analogous to an Internet with a bandwidth limit of 56K modems.  No video. No VOIP. Vastly more limited functionality.  It may be hard, but don't fucking tell me it's impossible. Some other crypto will do it if we don't.

You are clearly clueless about why the block size limit is necessary and there in the first place. Go back to your homeworks. First assignement:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/007880.html

Code:
To elaborate, in my view there is a at least a two fold concern on this
particular ("Long term Mining incentives") front:

One is that the long-held argument is that security of the Bitcoin system
in the long term depends on fee income funding autonomous, anonymous,
decentralized miners profitably applying enough hash-power to make
reorganizations infeasible.

For fees to achieve this purpose, there seemingly must be an effective
scarcity of capacity.  The fact that verifying and transmitting
transactions has a cost isn't enough, because all the funds go to pay
that cost and none to the POW "artificial" cost; e.g., if verification
costs 1 then the market price for fees should converge to 1, and POW
cost will converge towards zero because they adapt to whatever is
being applied. Moreover, the transmission and verification costs can
be perfectly amortized by using large centralized pools (and efficient
differential block transmission like the "O(1)" idea) as you can verify
one time instead of N times, so to the extent that verification/bandwidth
is a non-negligible cost to miners at all, it's a strong pressure to
centralize.  You can understand this intuitively: think for example of
carbon credit cap-and-trade: the trade part doesn't work without an
actual cap; if everyone was born with a 1000 petaton carbon balance,
the market price for credits would be zero and the program couldn't hope
to share behavior. In the case of mining, we're trying to optimize the
social good of POW security. (But the analogy applies in other ways too:
increases to the chain side are largely an externality; miners enjoy the
benefits, everyone else takes the costs--either in reduced security or
higher node operating else.)

This area has been subject to a small amount of academic research
(e.g. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2400519). But
there is still much that is unclear.

The second is that when subsidy has fallen well below fees, the incentive
to move the blockchain forward goes away.  An optimal rational miner
would be best off forking off the current best block in order to capture
its fees, rather than moving the blockchain forward, until they hit
the maximum. That's where the "backlog" comment comes from, since when
there is a sufficient backlog it's better to go forward.  I'm not aware
of specific research into this subquestion; it's somewhat fuzzy because
of uncertainty about the security model. If we try to say that Bitcoin
should work even in the face of most miners being profit-maximizing
instead of altruistically-honest, we must assume the chain will not
more forward so long as a block isn't full.  In reality there is more
altruism than zero; there are public pressures; there is laziness, etc.

There will never be no limit.  Sure, we could remove the limit from consensus requirements (which I would actually support), but transactions still have a cost.  They have to be verified and then stored until all outputs are spent.  This requires storage hardware and bandwidth.  Also, larger blocks will be orphaned more frequently, providing additional pressure for miners to voluntarily keep blocks small.

Did you bother reading this part?

Quote
The fact that verifying and transmitting transactions has a cost isn't enough, because all the funds go to pay that cost and none to the POW "artificial" cost; e.g., if verification costs 1 then the market price for fees should converge to 1, and POW cost will converge towards zero because they adapt to whatever is being applied. Moreover, the transmission and verification costs can be perfectly amortized by using large centralized pools (and efficient differential block transmission like the "O(1)" idea) as you can verify one time instead of N times, so to the extent that verification/bandwidth is a non-negligible cost to miners at all, it's a strong pressure to centralize.

This pressure for miners to keep blocks small is temporary and will eventually decline and disappear, it's already starting to seeing as numerous improvements have been made in improving general block propagation time between miners.

I read the whole thing.  I'll believe O (1) block propagation when I see an implementation  (or at least a reasonable explanation of how it could be implemented).

Besides, the vast majority of miners use pools anyway.  How would larger blocks change anything?
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1040
http://consumerist.com/2015/09/02/ncr-confirms-technical-issue-resulted-in-duplicate-charges-for-some-shoppers-at-multiple-retailers/


This is the kinda thing that, if it happened to enough people, would get them considering alternatives, i.e. BTC.

"Shoppers who were overcharged should see those charges reversed “within five business days” of the incdient, which would mean this Friday, Sept. 4."
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. Forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin


cant wait for gavin and hearn to be muted tho.

the sooner they fork off the better for bitcoin and its price.

Buddy, if it ever forks, you'll be on the wrong side, hope you realize that.





meheh you're better at trollin than talking about things you dont understand.

so plz keep diggin, buddy.


Thank you, you seem to be great at talking about things you don't understand.

Keep talking, it's hilarious.
legendary
Activity: 1639
Merit: 1006
We should absolutely avoid the danger of instilling into Bitcoin users some kind of belief that they have a right to free transactions.


 Undecided

This post is full of misguided assumptions.

It should come as a rational observation considering the shortcomings you have pointed out that there exist absolutely no incentive to purchase bitcoins to make purchases.

As is yours. Making the assumption that bitcoin was never intended to be a transaction system is probably the biggest assumption of them all.
 

Were do I mention that Bitcoin is not intended for transactions?

see above

I see. Maybe that came off wrong but that wasn't my point. The point being it makes little sense for the average consumer to have to jump through all the hoops of buying bitcoins just to make a purchase. Now don't get me wrong it might serve some niche use cases but this is simply not something you can sell to mainstream consumers, even if they can make 100000000000000 transactions for free.

Technology changes, systems change. Today you are right, nobody (I know) ever buys bitcoin for purchases because of simplicity or tangible rewards. However, that may not always be the case.

What bothers me about this debate is you have two sides, but only one side wants to declare now what Bitcoin's future should be, the other treats bitcoin more like infrastructure and is willing to support ANY future or features that may come on top of that infrastructure.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. Forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin


cant wait for gavin and hearn to be muted tho.

the sooner they fork off the better for bitcoin and its price.

Buddy, if it ever forks, you'll be on the wrong side, hope you realize that.





meheh you're better at trollin than talking about things you dont understand.

so plz keep diggin, buddy.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. Forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin


cant wait for gavin and hearn to be muted tho.

the sooner they fork off the better for bitcoin and its price.

Buddy, if it ever forks, you'll be on the wrong side, hope you realize that.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. Forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin


cant wait for gavin and hearn to be muted tho.

the sooner they fork off the better for bitcoin and its price.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted

I know, I agree with you 100%. ForkingUsing another client that is capable of forking is the best way to vote (=just my opinion)

It's just something we have to remember for next year when some idiot comes telling us that bitcoin will be replaced by a better altcoin.
We can just say then:

A) It already happend, XT
B) It didn't work, XT tried

And put him on ignore....  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 667
Merit: 500
My personal impression is that hash rate is dictated by price and (more importantly?) technology, with rate reacting to price and not the inverse. The two big ramps were directly related to a paradigm shift in mining tech, CPU to GPU, and GPU to ASIC. With ASIC gear becoming increasingly efficient we will probably see a rise in hashrate even in the face of a flat or modestly declining price. The upcoming halving should be pretty interesting for those watching this relationship. 

It's not inconceivable that hashrate actually drives price in certain scenarios, once you consider the possibility of mining operations hedging by entering into futures contracts, and potentially establishing a floor based on buying instead of mining to satisfy those contracts at certain price levels.
hero member
Activity: 748
Merit: 500
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

BictoinXT is just an alt-client...same as Toshi from Coinbase and others

It is surprising how there are so many people that don't know what they are talking about and yet they have very strong opinion about it

There were already more clients before XT...the Bitcoin client development should not be centralized...You never know what real intentions of Blockstream are...And i don't think for profit company should lead development of open source decentralised software...they can develop, sure, but they can't be the only one, because these guys can be corrupted
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Food for thought:

If bitcoinXT doesn't get adopted it has proven that bitcoin will not be replaced by a better alt-coin.

more food:

bitcoin XT is the first altcoin with sorta fair premine.. xD
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
How's that supposed to work? How many "blockspace" do I get for 1 bitcoin?

Easy. 1/21,000,000th of the whole chain.  I answered your question, now you answer mine. If I'm not buying space on the blockchain when I'm buying bitcoin, what am I buying?

Just quoting this again for posterity.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC
-snip-

Oh man, thanks. You just summed up this discussion with one image.
I'm rolling on the floor LMAO.
 Grin

"A picture says more than a thousand words."

Only problem is: nerds are wordy.

legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1008
Delusional crypto obsessionist


Oh man, thanks. You just summed up this discussion with one image.
I'm rolling on the floor LMAO.
 Grin
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